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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr März 08, 2019 14:36    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

NGP can not check if you playonline/offline or which plugin is used. It is written as open for all plugins. I thing it is right to protect the simulation focus (and hard reserch for real technical data). So in my opinion it is right to restrict changes exept ingame setable parameter (like setup)

but i belive, a joystick should work faster than a steering wheel. And it is wrong, that turns working better with wheel. on tarmac you need definitly handbrake for narrow harpins. and dont forget, old cars had not such professional hydraulic handbrake, so maybe the tyres not full blocking on turn.....

maybe you be wrong if you think, more steering = more turn. dont forget, if you be to fast and steer to much, your frontwheels understeer. without force feedback it could hard to feel it.

maybe check "filter" options at rbr options, maybe it could help to adjust control (for keybordplayer it works very good)

in my personal opinion, it makes no sense to play NGP with a joystick. it feels like you have half fun ( a bad wheel is allways better than controler, joystick or keyboard)

As i workerbee know he will never change NGP because of your reasons smile

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr März 08, 2019 18:13    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Few things about NGP-6:

1) Is "%temp%\NGP_SetupErrors.log" gone?
2) Maybe custom telemetry -files location...
3) How can I use "scripts\*.gp" -files? I know how to plot simple charts: plot 'telemetry.tsv' u 1:4 w l
4) Was telemetry -feature included/suppressed in vanilla RBR, because there is Telemetry string in language files (strings.rbz)?

Bonus:
Is "RBR_SetupManager.zip" End-Of-Life?

WorkerBee:
Make RBR realistic as possible :)
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr März 08, 2019 18:27    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

jansku22 hat folgendes geschrieben:
Few things about NGP-6:

1) Is "%temp%\NGP_SetupErrors.log" gone?

No, still present.
If you have invalid values, these will still be reported.

jansku22 hat folgendes geschrieben:

2) Maybe custom telemetry -files location...

No.
But you may move that folder anywhere you like and
"mklink /J telemetry myfolderlocation"

You get the point.

jansku22 hat folgendes geschrieben:

3) How can I use "scripts\*.gp" -files? I know how to plot simple charts: plot 'telemetry.tsv' u 1:4 w l

Simple.
set your loadpath to "telemetry" and scripts folder or use environment GNUPLOT_LIB
create a variable called file:
'file=mytelemetryfile.tsv'
'load scriptname.gp'
(or something like that, from memory)

jansku22 hat folgendes geschrieben:

4) Was telemetry -feature included/suppressed in vanilla RBR, because there is Telemetry string in language files (strings.rbz)?

No, the telemetry in strings was something else.
Telemetry is NGP exclusive !

jansku22 hat folgendes geschrieben:


Bonus:
Is "RBR_SetupManager.zip" End-Of-Life?

No, still alive and kicking. wink
Plan is to update this tool to the current NGP spec as soon as NGP6 is finished.
Well, I hate UI programming, so I have been a little bit hesitant with that ... all that new options.

jansku22 hat folgendes geschrieben:

WorkerBee:
Make RBR realistic as possible smile

Well, some think it is already too realistic. wink

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr März 08, 2019 19:12    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Ok, thanks WorkerBee.

If RBR feels "too realistic", you drive too fast :)
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa März 09, 2019 02:21    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I am so in love with the NGP 6, but even after fiddling with the setup for DS3 and looots of kms of testing, I always end up in a spin somewhere after such subtle slide that is just impossible to catch. This was definitely not an issue in NGP 5, but at the same time I don't know whether this can be just more realistic... but it makes the driving especially tricky... and with 540 even more.
Is there anyone testing NGP 6 who doesn't have a problem with loosing the control in oversteer?

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa März 09, 2019 07:47    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

to WorkerBee:

Zitat:

No, still alive and kicking. wink
Plan is to update this tool to the current NGP spec as soon as NGP6 is finished.


WOW, new SetupManager will be helpful!

I just had a headache about tuning the Damps for spending a lot of time with the little steps. I tried editing physics file (r_gravel.lsp in .rbz) to change the DampBumpStep 10.0 to 100.0, but I found if I change any parameter in it, my gear would never shift up to 2 or above.

In NGP 5 everything works fine after I edited .lsp parameters, I often edit some files for personal offline preference. Has NGP 6 added cheat protection?
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa März 09, 2019 08:03    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

RE: Lamda

Lamda hat folgendes geschrieben:

but i belive, a joystick should work faster than a steering wheel.

My device, I use a motion axis as steering (rolling left and right totally 180 degree), but being limited by human body posture, I practically can use a half range without standing up. This is why I have to edit .lsp parameter.

Lamda hat folgendes geschrieben:

maybe you be wrong if you think, more steering = more turn. dont forget, if you be to fast and steer to much, your frontwheels understeer.

I know, I use bigger front toe out (-0.30 to -0.50) to gain sharper steering.

Lamda hat folgendes geschrieben:

in my personal opinion, it makes no sense to play NGP with a joystick. it feels like you have half fun ( a bad wheel is allways better than controler, joystick or keyboard)

I'm often in other place other than home, can not use wheel.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa März 09, 2019 08:21    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

In NGP 6 it's hands off the LSP files, as there is kind of cheat protection implemented.

"Sorry" about that. Not. wink

Anyway for big changes in the setup files you can still use the old SetupManager.
I do use it for development of NGP suspension (and yes, steering as well) and setups.
But ... if you have a car which has advanced features like 4-way dampers, adjustable bump stops etc. you will have to re-open your base setups within RBR and make final adjustments.
Or use your favorite text editor to edit the setup lsp files.

@jendabek
Yesterday I tried the (new/bug fixed) R5 and WRC on several stages.
I have no issues with losing the rear.
Instead, the car oversteers slightly through fast and very fast corners without using any steering, just by throttle and maybe sometimes very slight LFB.
Crazy how these cars are planted to the ground.
And by the way, as I am too lazy to recalibrate my G25 every time, and I don't like softlock, I still use the full 900° range for all cars.
The only problem I have is when switching cars, as you have to adapt to different steering ratios and ranges.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa März 09, 2019 08:55    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

NGP 6.0 feels great, increasing the car inertias was the right way to go. Looking forward to all the other cars.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa März 09, 2019 09:44    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

exbagboy hat folgendes geschrieben:
NGP 6.0 feels great, increasing the car inertias was the right way to go. Looking forward to all the other cars.


Thank you, I have used different formulas to calculate, but that was just a minor change, really.

BTW, I think the thesis by Croft-White we are both using as kind of reference is in parts not correct and consistent.
Too many wrong guesses which do not match my experience as engineer.
But this is not the right place to discuss this (off-topic). wink

EDIT:
Regarding setup verification (still working):
Code:

C:\Users\guenni\AppData\Local\Temp>type NGP_SetupErrors.log
09.03.2019 08:54:55 setup parameter MaxBrakePressureFront having value 1.602e+007 is out of range [0..9e+006] and has been reset to 9e+006

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa März 09, 2019 12:47    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Finally ... finished !!

NGP 6 revision 732.394 is available for download.

All cars updated.
Brake temperatures should now behave as expected.
And no, steering has not been changed. wink
Hopefully I have not accidentially built in some bugs, as updating all cars was lots of work, and not that much fun at all.

Please download and update the NGP 6 plugin and all cars !!

Make sure the new plugin is active (press ESC after loading the stage or have a look at the plugins's dialog), must read rev. 732.

Steps for updating are the same as switching to NGP 6, see first posting.

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Zuletzt bearbeitet von WorkerBee am Sa März 09, 2019 15:02, insgesamt einmal bearbeitet
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa März 09, 2019 14:20    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

First of all ... CONGRATULATIONS! This will bring lot of challenging fun wink

I just want to ask about the RBRCIT - it doesn't show up the new NGP revision (it has updated to 732.394 after pressing Update a while ago) so only those few cars are available. Any ideas?

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa März 09, 2019 14:46    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

jendabek hat folgendes geschrieben:
First of all ... CONGRATULATIONS! This will bring lot of challenging fun wink

I just want to ask about the RBRCIT - it doesn't show up the new NGP revision (it has updated to 732.394 after pressing Update a while ago) so only those few cars are available. Any ideas?


Sorry for the little mess.

RBRCIT has just been updated to the "true" 1.0.5 revision, where the INI files have been changed.
I have just updated the NGP switcher to reflect the changes.

@everyone
Please download the new RBRCIT v1.0.5 and the new NGP switcher and everything will be fine.

RBRCIT should show NGP 6.0.732.394 as version.

Currently we have 10 cars, so the list actually is short.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa März 09, 2019 14:55    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I have downloaded RBRCIT again from the link in the very first post and I it made no difference for me - still 732.394 after pressing the Update (date of modification of the .dll in Plugins folder is 2019-03-06).
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa März 09, 2019 15:00    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

WorkerBee hat folgendes geschrieben:
Finally ... finished !!

NGP 6 revision 732.694 is available for download.

Maybe you made a typo with that ".694" and it should be 394? smile

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa März 09, 2019 15:01    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

jendabek hat folgendes geschrieben:
I have downloaded RBRCIT again from the link in the very first post and I it made no difference for me - still 732.394 after pressing the Update (date of modification of the .dll in Plugins folder is 2019-03-06).


So this was a misunderstanding.

732 is the latest revision. It is from 2019-03-06.
Updating and testing took a few days.
Everything's ok. smile

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa März 09, 2019 15:02    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

jendabek hat folgendes geschrieben:
WorkerBee hat folgendes geschrieben:
Finally ... finished !!

NGP 6 revision 732.694 is available for download.

Maybe you made a typo with that ".694" and it should be 394? smile


Gotcha.

Maybe I'm working too much ... lol

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa März 09, 2019 15:16    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

OMG - just few seconds of testing DS3 with the latest NGP revision & car physics ... INCREDIBLE! Much more responsive steering, no oversteer, extremely pleasant to control - I am not a rally driver, but now I find the physics just perfect personally!

OK, now back to work... but wait, just one run yet biggrin

AMAZING piece of work - thank you and get some rest too! smile

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa März 09, 2019 22:02    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Hello, first of all congratulate for the great job you have done!
I have downloaded RBRCIT again from the link in the very first post but the problem is that it runs, appears minimized and the content is not seen, it is minimized. I can not access
What could be the problem ?
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa März 09, 2019 22:11    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

WorkerBee: Unfortunately, even after the new update, I still experience what already reported that R5 driver - the Hyundai i20 R5 is really insensitive to steering inputs and it feels like the weight is much higher, not only compared to reality (he has real experience with R5), but also compared to DS3 WRC in NGP 6.
To avoid any placebo, I made a comparison video with almost the same steering input at almost the same speed, you can see that R5 is mostly tilting while DS3 actually changes direction in more significant manner. For that reason I struggled driving R5 with 270 and with 540 (like in reality) I find it nearly undriveable.
https://youtu.be/LdtjU8FhthE

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 BeitragVerfasst am: So März 10, 2019 11:02    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

@Mosquera
Probably the window was minimized when you shut down Windows.
Go to %AppData%\RBRCIT\RBRCIT and delete the windowstate.txt file.
Maybe this would fix the isssue.
I have contacted the author of the tool to check that.

-------------------------------

Regarding R5/WRC.

Please note that the Hyundai R5 has a wheelbase of 2571 mm, whereas the DS3 WRC has 2461 mm.
That's a world of difference, I would say.
Usually you already realize a change in the handling when the difference is only 10 to 20 mm ...
Anyway, to make our test drivers happy I have optimized the cars' properties a little bit.

Feel free to "update all existing physics" again and check it.


Little off-topic:
Also note that in a virtual simulation you always perceive kind of "input lag", as you do not feel the forces immediately, e.g. after a steering input, like you would in a real car.
The forces are present, the car actually is already rotating, but the visual feedback seems to be lagging, as you don't realize such minimal movements.
So actually, a virtual vehicle will never "feel" like the real thing.
But it should behave like that. This is what NGP is all about.
Even the best motion rig, being a step in the right direction, is just fake and not anywhere close to the real thing.
You cannot simulate the G-forces involved.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: So März 10, 2019 15:40    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Hello Bee,
you have made a big step forward with the steering. I set my wheel to 540°
C2 R2 - nice reaction, pretty good to drive, very fun, I drove this car in real, and its very similar to this physics.
DS3 R3 - similar like C2 R2, very funny to drive, i like it
Porsche Gr.B - nice reaction on steering too, good to drive
Clio Gr.A - same as other fwd, funny to drive, pretty reaction on steering
DS3 WRC - good improvement on steering, but i.e., if I was on a fast section on Cote, road to the village, I had big speed here and steering at big speed was not good on reaction. Its seems to be like there is a steering dead zone. In slow corners, I tested on Hagenau, there was a good fun and I feel like on a real WRC
Hyundai R5 - almost same problems like on WRC, but here I think is a less reactive as on WRC. I recommend make this car more sensitive.
Fiat 124 - sorry man, this car is totally undriveable. It always spin at middle of the corner, whatever I do. I have experience with RWD but this one is horrible, undriveable, sorry.

As a whole.. this physics are very realistic, I feel very good to drive this cars up to a few problems. Very good work man !
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: So März 10, 2019 18:49    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Zitat:
Fiat 124 - sorry man, this car is totally undriveable. It always spin at middle of the corner, whatever I do. I have experience with RWD but this one is horrible, undriveable, sorry.


i dont agreee that
i try tarmac and snow with default setup. hard but driveable with senssitiv accelation.

maybe following setupchanges coould help you:

-reduce differential preload
-reduce differental lock power for accelation
-reduce the stabilizer bars for rear

in my test i dont get a easy car but realy controllable (Porsche GT3 in NGP5 is more difficult to drive)

maybe the point is, how fast you can react. i drive with 270°(lock to lock) on steeering wheel, 540 is generaly to slow for me (and my more oversteer drive style).

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 BeitragVerfasst am: So März 10, 2019 19:11    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Dennis Zetak hat folgendes geschrieben:
DS3 WRC - good improvement on steering, but i.e., if I was on a fast section on Cote, road to the village, I had big speed here and steering at big speed was not good on reaction. Its seems to be like there is a steering dead zone. In slow corners, I tested on Hagenau, there was a good fun and I feel like on a real WRC

No dead zone. Doesn't make sense.
If at the limit, the steering sensitivity drops down to almost zero.
And at high speeds the yaw damping is dramatically reduced, making the car spin much easier.
That's well known vehicle dynamics.

Dennis Zetak hat folgendes geschrieben:
Hyundai R5 - almost same problems like on WRC, but here I think is a less reactive as on WRC. I recommend make this car more sensitive.

Again, no, I won't do that.
Maybe you have read my previous posting where I tried to explain.
Anyway, a WRC at triple the price should be a little bit better (and responsive) than a R5 car.

So you will have to wait for the Fabia R5, which has a shorter wheelbase and therefore will be more "responsive", to put it that way.

Dennis Zetak hat folgendes geschrieben:
Fiat 124 - sorry man, this car is totally undriveable. It always spin at middle of the corner, whatever I do. I have experience with RWD but this one is horrible, undriveable, sorry.

So do I, for more than 30 years. wink
Undriveable ?
What do you expect from a car having 310 hp and 600 Nm available torque ??
The shitty real thing for the pussies has traction control, as all the nowadays production poser cars and SUVs have.
When I was young, a long time ago, everybody knew that a single driven axle usually can not handle more than 300Nm or 300 hp.
This is why AWD was invented, at least in the context of rallying.
I still remember the group B drivers stating that 500 to 600 hp is "just enough", because everything beyond is not controllable in a sane way anymore.

Before anyone out there thinks "OMG, The Bee is such a bloody idiot, the 037 had 330 hp, the Turbo Toyotas 370 hp, Moby Dick had 850 hp, all RWD and driveable" ... I know that.
The 037 was mid-engine, and that power was the absolute limit.
Same applies to the rear-engine Porsches.
The Toyotas actually burned the tyres instead of winning anything, other than Safari. wink
Moby Dick was a track race car with huge wings, that's a world of difference.

So, enjoy the Fiat RGT, and be careful with the throttle.
It is a challenge, but far from undriveable.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo März 11, 2019 18:44    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

WorkerBee: Thank you again for taking our suggestions into account! I now find Hyundai R5 fine, and also Fabia R5 driver reported it is now much closer to reality - excellent! Also I told him that Fabia should be even more sensitive due the smaller wheelbase (does it really make that difference in reality?).

I have zero knowledge about the other cars than R5 or WRC, so I can't comment suggestions by Dennis in this area.

Personally I cannot wait when NGP 6 will be available on RBRTM, when I returned to NGP 5, it just feels little "dull". NGP 6 seems to be more about driving skills which is exactly I was hoping for.

I made an onboard video with previous "before WRC/R5 fix" version that could hopefully work as a tribute to your (and Rally Guru's) work
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CueLDceMnW0

I believe that the combination of your physics & nice detailed stage lets RBR outshine all rally titles even in eyes of absolute rally-noobs.

Now we need to establish a petition which would force Wally to continue with development of his editor or release the sources (I dream about specular maps for my buildings!!!) smile)

THANK YOU

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