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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jun 05, 2019 15:33    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

beiing in contact with the top drivers, i say its not true smile mostly the angle is above 450

mine is 450
klimas 540
chrascina 450
jagiello 450-540

around 360 the car gets understeer too easy. its only helping in quick recoverys, but its loosing much time lacking precision

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Do Jun 06, 2019 11:59    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I use always 540
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Do Jun 06, 2019 20:53    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Ok guys, so the hardware wheel angle is a matter of personal taste.
I think this is the case since the beginning of RBR ... wink


Anyway, a new NGP 6.0.741.404 version is available for testing.

The steering is now more responsive, making the car react faster to steering inputs.

But, as we all know, every good thing comes at a cost.

The driving now requires more precision, which is not such a bad thing for good drivers, but may not be a good thing for bad drivers. Yes, I'm a poet. biggrin

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Do Jun 06, 2019 23:04    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

WorkerBee, I still struggle to handle oversteers like this - no throttle, wheels in opposite direction, but the car still doesn't get any grip and continues with sliding "forever". It doesn't seem correct for me, but maybe it is just matter of the setup?
https://youtu.be/viThksck16k

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Jun 07, 2019 00:05    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

(only tested gravel, fiesta19wrc):

Also with a similar feeling as jendabek.

It doesnt feel gradual, the car just goes oversteering and almost doesnt answer to any inputs. Even with diff setups and so on, theres something weird and incorrect in the cars behaviour, its either understeering or oversteering, the window of operation is just too small (like what they said of the C3 wrc
:D ).

A rally car should be very predictable in its behaviour - because the unpredictability comes from all the other factors involved in the rally - road surfaces, pacenotes, etc etc. The difficulty should not come from me not knowing if the car is gonna just want to oversteer or understeer. Im not saying it should be simple to drive, no, thats Dirt - it should be complex but predictable.


On another note: the hand brake behaviour just isnt realistic. Anyone just watch wrc footage or live - one can see the weight of the back of the car gradually and in a controlled way going around a hairpin - in ngp6 it just snaps like there is no weight in the back and allways wants to oversteer.

finally, the steering angle is still not correct.


Im really sad to say this but this ngp version is the worst I have tried. There was something in the 3.1 version, something gradual and predictable on gravel that just felt right. Sure other factors were not as complex as newer versions but there was predictability and consistent behaviour.

I think you should make available the previous ngp versions.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Jun 07, 2019 02:09    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

pedrodfa hat folgendes geschrieben:

Also with a similar feeling as jendabek...


My experience: I don't do "update" to the NGP, but do clean installation.
Because if I just update, I met many bugs after that.
Install clean, and I also manually delete all the remarks (like '; 4.857' behind gear numbers) in physics files (like r_gravel.lsp).
Try it, and see if there would be less bugs.

BTW: Bee, is there any news about the SetupManager Tool? Tuning is more and more like a time killing work as NGP updates....
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Jun 07, 2019 10:02    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

i wasnt testing actual physic but:

if you have oversteer, try to reduce anti roll bar stiffnes and play a little bit with the angles of suspension geometry

Zitat:
Im not saying it should be simple to drive, no, thats Dirt - it should be complex but predictable.
look to WRC videos how much driver must working on steering. compare it to rbr. im sure reality isn´t predictable as rbr but we are in RBR more close at the limit as it is possible in reality... maybe think about

i would be with you, if you would say it must be possible to set up a more oversteer car and a more understeer car by setup.

i would very surprised if this release is so bad as you sad, i will try it soon myself

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Jun 07, 2019 13:05    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Bee, I dont know what you do, but you are on right way ! Steering is now much more response, I cant drive it on 270°, its good ! Now I test 450° on my steering and 540°. On 450° its almost perfect, but on 540° its still not response enough. As I said, i dont know what you do, but give it more and it will be perfect on 540° ! Im very pleased

EDIT: after tests, 360° is ideal for me, so its still not 540°like in real
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Jun 07, 2019 20:47    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Well, so we have something in between absolutely undrivable/total shit and little improvement.

I suppose all of us play table tennis ?!

Realistic Physics ?

I mean, this whole "but the vidoes show otherwise" thing is really questionable.

Do we (or at least some of us) really compare with the top ten rally drivers ? wink

Driving a hot shot 2019 WRC is nothing like driving granny's car to the mall.
You may catch AWD oversteer by full throttle, not by only counter-steering. Just a hint. Anbarra knows this. smile

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Jun 07, 2019 23:35    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

yep thats right. awd is like fwd in most of cases.

amd one exercise to really feel how much right inputs matters: make a full braking attempt with wheels 100% straight. then turn them with exwry next attemp slightly in 2° steps. you will be schocked how much the balance, trajectory and braking distance can change. try also the same with the throttle on a slippy corner (the same corner) and concnetrate only on single small change in one of the inputs (steer thr/brk or gears).

this hint can also help to produce some good stage times. in driving on the edge, less is more, when the car is already sent to the corner turning by its weight, you really dont need to correct much but also you must be careful not to overdose something, the faster you drive the more accurate you must be

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Jun 07, 2019 23:57    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Bee:-) oh, what an accurate comparison!
I think this is the point that most people don't want to accept. Real rally driving is so different that many people would be surprised.
We are just sitting on chair, steering a wheel and estimating every movement through monitor. And of cooourse we think that after few kilometres we can drive like Ogier biggrin...because there is no fear, crash consequences etc.

imho default setup is far away from perfect so I made a few quick setups for Fiesta 19 and now it is really driveable for me. I need to learn a lot, but thats the way I suppose in real car...even in the slowest granny's car.

Ok guys, it is all about our feelings, but if we want a pure rally physic, we have to accept that none of us can drive a real wrc car, so maybe it's time to learn it smile

PS: About handbrake, I'm using a load cell handbrake that (I hope) is closest to reality and no problem with hairpins etc.

PS2: I own quite powerfull awd car. After few years I can already tell, that I really know this car and I have a full control. But if I try the same car in simulator, it feels slow, non fuctional, infinitely understeer etc. And I believe it is just because I can't "feel the car". I can't feel speed, weight transfer and steering input as in real life. Just think about it...

SORRY for a little off topic...But I think it's good to realize that.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Jun 08, 2019 01:18    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

wrcPuncture hat folgendes geschrieben:

Ok guys, it is all about our feelings, but if we want a pure rally physic, we have to accept that none of us can drive a real wrc car, so maybe it's time to learn it smile


you would be surprised how easy its to drive real rally car after knowing rbr physics smile when you play rbr with care, you will be able to adapt at least 80% to the real car, the 20% are the forces and the mindset "yes, this is still a car, just got a physics update but its still a car, so i can drive it"

but everything becomes bigger in real. 60kmh becomes like 120 in burns, small sliding on the rear makes you think you spin, slightly more lift on the inner car side makes you think you are about to make 2 rollovers... but this just doesnt happend becaue rbr taught us to be very very careful and twink twice or even triple what we do.

go out with grannys car and your phone, record some onboards from taking some corners wild as 18-years old driving apprentice, then watch the video and you see that 70% of the intensity is gone: car seems to be not turning, has no brakes, has no power. no difference if grannys car, or WRC car, the flat screen cuts it away

anyone who has ever driven a rally car himself or had a codrive takes that into account

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Jun 08, 2019 08:28    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Ok, thx for the feedback.
Seems like a more racing-like tire doesn't do the trick.


Anyway, a new NGP 6.0.742.405 version is available for testing over the weekend (and maybe holidays, depending on your culture ...) !

Please test, and don't forget to name the car and surface you have been driven, when giving feedback. wink

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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jun 09, 2019 11:51    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I have tested the recent version, but only with DS3 WRC because I have some nice setup available for this car - I tried some gravel stages and I don't know what you have tweaked or if it is just placebo, but it feels just perfect for me. Very predictable, but still very challenging - excellent!
I also tested tarmac with this car - FSO Zeran and found it very tricky to find some spot between uncontrollable oversteer vs understeer, but this can be related to the setup and the fact, that tarmac should be very tricky smile

I drive with noobish 270, so I can't say add anything to the "responsivness" topic.

In overall I really cannot wait to see NGP 6 on plugin, but I suppose we need to have all plugin cars updated first? Do you think V. Koral could add the support for NGP 6 before that, so we can use new physics right from the start of an upcoming championships (like our Czech "NRC" which starts by September?).

Thanks for GOOD JOB!

smile

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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jun 09, 2019 13:46    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

WorkerBee hat folgendes geschrieben:
Ok, thx for the feedback.
Seems like a more racing-like tire doesn't do the trick.


Anyway, a new NGP 6.0.742.405 version is available for testing over the weekend (and maybe holidays, depending on your culture ...) !

Please test, and don't forget to name the car and surface you have been driven, when giving feedback. wink


Is it possible to describe main changes between last two NGP versions? (6.0.741.404 vs. 6.0.742.405)
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jun 09, 2019 14:34    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

As my tests, it is a totaly different if you play with 280°, 540° or 720° (or what ever) suspension lock .

if it work fine for 280° it could be impossible to drive on 720°

if we want the best realistic result it should allways test with realistic lock to lock settings. If Workerbee gets feedback with different lock to lock settings the result will be allways different and he can try to change physic 1000 times and always some people say its crap.

maybe it would help him, you try with realistic settings and if that not work, try to find out best setting. But you need to write the lock to lock settings to your testing result.

next point, you allways testing WRC cars, physic should working for all cars. Please also test FWD or RWD. it makes no sense we have a WRC physic at the end and all other cars not working well.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jun 09, 2019 15:23    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

fiesta19, gravel/tarmac, 540º

So this new version seems quite different from the previous, I find the car on gravel much more predictable and controllable in the oversteer situation. Seems quite good.
On tarmac is when I feel the low steering angle of the wheels in a more clear way. Too much rotation of the steering wheel is needed I think. Also, like Jandabek said it goes too easily into an oversteer situation in hairpins, I think it should be a bit more controllable and gradual - even with a lot of setup adjustments it still feels too oversteery. Its like a very small window you have to get the hairpin right - and in previous versions of ngp I would always hit 99 out of 100 hairpins right - in this version I feel I hit 60 right only. I don't know if this is a direct consequence of the smaller steering angle of the wheels compared with ngp5.

Overall feels quite good, much better than the previous version. Still, the topic of the steering angle doesnt seem totally correct for me driving with the realistic 540º wheel.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jun 09, 2019 18:48    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

For what it's worth (I'm sure Workerbee has heard enough about our "feelings", but for some of us it's all we've got) regarding the unstoppable oversteer situation that I keep seeing mentioned. I never felt that this had to do with the steering. The rear seemed to lack a certain "bite" that was in NGP 5. As other have said, maybe to an extent it is more realistic because in NGP 5 it was rare for me to spin more than 180 degrees.. You could always find some bite in the rear and could save it from going completely out of control.

I haven't had a chance to test the newest version because the rally schedule is very busy this month but last I tested I went immediately to the rear diff thinking it had too little lock (that was the feeling I got). I then went to the geometry thinking that maybe these tire changes had something to do with it but no luck there either. I mostly tested R5 and WRC so I can't say if this applies to any other cars. As pedrodfa said it is mostly noticable on tarmac, hairpins especially, but still on gravel I had a few moments.

Of course I've just changed my driving style to be much much much less aggressive in the situations that cause this loss of the the rear but since we are talking about our feelings, I figured I would say something.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jun 10, 2019 07:30    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

So far everyhing fits into the big picture.

Version 404 was just a crappy tire physics variant to track down the supposed steering responsiveness issue.
I didn't like it at all and so did you ...

But it was the right step to take just to show that there are different kinds of drivers.
Drivers who control the car, making the car's behavior match their inputs closely.
And there are drivers who just react to the car, making their inputs match the car's behavior.

Getting 99% of your hairpins perfectly is more than Ogier is capable of.

If you have to catch a (too) loose rear end by countersteering you had made a mistake when initiating the spin. That means you do not control the car, you are just a passenger reacting to it.

Just my 2 cents, but if you really want to see what oversteer looks like, take the 911 for a ride.

There is nothing wrong with the steering, and there is nothing wrong with the handbrake.
You can adjust the handbrake pressure, and you can apply input filters in the settings, especially useful if using a digital hb lever.

You do not have to lock up the rear wheels 100% to make it slide, you just have to decelerate them "enough" (=apply longitudinal force) to take away lateral force capability. If you block the wheels 100%, the available tire force drops off significantly, and the loose end will just keep moving.
This is one of the things you do not see in your beloved videos of the top WRC drivers. wink

Vaclav says that it is not possible to support two kinds of NGP physics.
The plan is to update the most important cars to NGP 6.
We have maybe 150 cars, but these are too many, and not required in the first place.
Making a new car class is very expensive, filling the car class with the models is not the problem.
So maybe I guess we will start with 30 to 50 cars, although I have not counted them yet (to keep being motivated ...).

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jun 10, 2019 08:29    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

There is an option to select between Original / NGP 4.4 / NGP 5.0 physics when creating a CZ plugin tournament, so I suppose the only problem is there are only original vs "new" cars listed for download in "Modifications" page?
Otherwise NGP 4.4 could be swapped by NGP 6?

Do you think someone could help you with "filling the car classes"? smile

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jun 10, 2019 17:29    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

My test: gravel/tarmac with Fiesta 19, DS3, C4 and Xsara - default setup for all. NGP 6.0.742.405, 540°, load cell brake and load cell handbrake (if it matters...but maybe yes mainly for handbrake)

What I really like is difference between wrc genereations. Not only behaviour but also engine map, gear ratios etc.

Xsara: huge torque, requires more "older" driving style. I really enjoyed it on every surface, it feels powerfull, but of course it is not as fast as new cars
C4: very stable, fast, easy for clean driving, just as Loeb described this car..I have same feelings
DS3: I just love it. So driveable, agile, fast, little bit nervous, I like the engine and short gear ratios (maybe other cars has similar ratios, but there it feels different for me).
Fiesta 19: nothing to say..incredible. Aero, grip, the engine, brakes. Easy to drive but requires real skill to drive it on the edge. You can be easily fast, but to set a best time, you need to drive it whole time. No rest, no doubts.

I don't like default setups. It' is my problem and of course I'm trying to do something that is suitable for my driving style.
With some setup changes I am really satisfied with this physic. BUT also default is driveable for me.
I don't have problem with steering and even with handbrake. Yeah, it is more complicated now. But who of us can throw wrc car to hairpin? smile

I like the Bee's note about drivers who control the car and drivers who just react to the car. In NGP 6 I really feel that I have to control the car. I can just react but then it is slow, non predictible, it does strange things - exactly like in real life. But if I CONTROL it, respect physic and cars characteristics, it is really enjoyable.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jun 10, 2019 19:02    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

jendabek hat folgendes geschrieben:
There is an option to select between Original / NGP 4.4 / NGP 5.0 physics when creating a CZ plugin tournament, so I suppose the only problem is there are only original vs "new" cars listed for download in "Modifications" page?

I have never created a tournament, so I can't really answer this one.
Didn't even know that someone really would use the outdated 4.4 anymore ...

jendabek hat folgendes geschrieben:
Otherwise NGP 4.4 could be swapped by NGP 6?

That's up to Vaclav, I am not familiar with the technical background.

jendabek hat folgendes geschrieben:
Do you think someone could help you with "filling the car classes"? smile

Ehm, no, not really.
I do not want to end up with cars having 792° steering lock. wink

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Jun 11, 2019 10:54    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

WorkerBee: don't you want to make also physic for Lancer evo IX gr.N or R4 for testing?
I think this car is close to something that normal people can experience. I know that even gr.N car is quite different from stock car, but driving style for example on studded tyres is similar. For people who have or tried evo or sti it should be easier to compare it with real life.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Jun 11, 2019 12:47    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Zitat:
WorkerBee: don't you want to make also physic for Lancer evo IX gr.N or R4 for testing?


makes it sense? not realy, the misubishi evo series (or subaru sti) are more racing cars than family car. would be same as you want compare a BMW 318 with a Porsche 911GT3
and at the end you have another difference between the big mitsubishi and the smaller classes like fiesta.

the rally tyres alone make a big different (and feeling)

maybe a skilles mitshubishi evo driver can compare a little bit to a real production rally car but there enough differnces too

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Jun 11, 2019 13:21    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I would also like to have this car in NGP 6, I am in touch with several Lancer Evo drivers so they could give us some relevant useful feedback.
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