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JaPan
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa März 15, 2014 22:26    Titel: International NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Some other tips or findings:

- why there is so low max. differential torque on every car, which is somewhere about preload value of some current cars (30-50 N.m)
- why there is only max. torque of rear differential even on AWD cars ?
- why every car have same stabilizers - 20
- why every car have (what I saw) same front and rear geometry (camber -0,5, toe -0,3??
- what about steering angle ? What is represented by 540°? How are divided cars with different stering angle in real (N4 group has 720°, WRC 540° etc.) ??

And one more finding - if I only could, but I cannot ignore, that your physics has significantly worse steering reaction than default physics and far more than current Walter physics. You could do something with it. This was a long time thing, which was criticized on us, and you now coming with this. Maybe I could find other things whose are needed to solve by you, whose we had to solve yet before.

But ... I dont see some good way now. Maybe you could really found out Walter had some good findings time ago, and you coming to them now. Maybe with better technics, with telemetry etc. but goal is almost the same. But I still believe, and testing of your cars confirm it to me, that Walter has still lead in many places. I must accept, there are some "places" where you are better.

You are asking us for data of cars. There is plenty of time behind research of these cars and also time for people of racing business to ask ... so ... we just are supposed to hand it over to you .... without anything ? Please, accept, that we made also something really good, seriously ... say, heads together, share all knowledge between, and make joint work. Sounds it good to you ?

(sorry for some not so english sentences etc. I'm a bit tired)
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: So März 16, 2014 09:04    Titel: International NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Just few more questions and tips:

- how do you want to manage differential preload and angle of ramps of current LSDs ?

- if I understand clear - you wiped out center diff for all AWD and replaced it with center clutch ? Ok, and what will you do with cars that have a center differential (N4 group, older WRCs etc.)

- I was testing on Sosnova yesterday with Audi Sport Quattro trying to make some powerslides to know how car behaves in such situations, and this was later destruction derby. In some moment I've hit some tyre banks and suddenly car lost every wheel. It's likely problem of the model, but anyway asking you what do you think.

- And one more question about Lamda video with Ascona on Sieversdorf - you have no gauger, so I cannot check it by numbers, but by sound - every hairpin you have stalled engine, or maybe engine goes off and on as I hear ... and maybe this is also in next video with BMW on same track.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo März 17, 2014 09:08    Titel: International NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

@JaPan:
please read the documentation files in the intallation package, it´s explain most of your questions.

And please don´t make pressure here, we have all a reallive and sometimes not time to allways answer in a hour.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo März 17, 2014 13:55    Titel: International NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Only one making pressure is you smile , I've just as I can politely asked ... Idea

Ok, I've checked again readme and I must lay again these questions and suggestions:

- Tyre and Surface parameters are optimized. Exactly how?
- Problems with engine stalling when braking (using automatic clutch). This problem wasn't with old (default) physics.
- Steering reaction is like ours about year ago. Will you do something with that?
- Do you incorporate losses on differentials etc. to engine power? Can you please tell us, how much power has your cars on wheels?
- Please, make some contemporary car - e.g. Lancer Evo IX - documentation for this car can be found without problems on internet.
- There is no preload on front diff in Audi setups and even preload can't be set. These car had no preload on front diffs in real?
- What will you do with center differential in cars which have it? Rely on default diff in RBR?
- Why every car I saw has same front and rear geometry, same stabilizers and in some times unreal spring stiffness (BMW M3 on gravel etc.?)?
- What about steering angle ? What is represented by 540°? How are divided cars with different stering angle in real (N4 group has 720°, WRC 540° etc.) ??
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo März 17, 2014 16:26    Titel: International NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

JaPan hat folgendes geschrieben:

- Why every car I saw has same front and rear geometry, same stabilizers and in some times unreal spring stiffness (BMW M3 on gravel etc.?)


why are you complaining about things which you can adjust to yourself ?
rather tell me what do the values for dampers mean in your physics..

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo März 17, 2014 17:05    Titel: International NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Why I'm complaing this? Because its one important thing of comprehensive, final, not scrap physics. How can somebody test these cars and say its good, when cars have non real setup? And how can somebody know, what is real setup for such car? Normal approach is to make physics where default setup is normal factory or client default real setup (or as close as it could be). And I'm convinced that it is very important for normal, common user, to have some common base setup, with which you can ride. And ..... if driving is without problems with unreal setup, don't you think something is not right? I think so.

And one more thing - when you set BMW M3 with real setup, than it is impossible to drive (tested by our respectable finnish test driver) and I think its not so minor issue.

(details of our settings will be posted in right topic, anyway our setups of Fabia correspond to Skoda factory default client setup, others are as close as we could find)
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo März 17, 2014 17:33    Titel: International NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

JaPan hat folgendes geschrieben:

- Tyre and Surface parameters are optimized. Exactly how?

According to tyre models and case studies from several different sources.

JaPan hat folgendes geschrieben:
- Problems with engine stalling when braking (using automatic clutch). This problem wasn't with old (default) physics.

Maybe it is more difficult to drive, if this is a PITA for some people, we will investigate this.

JaPan hat folgendes geschrieben:
- Steering reaction is like ours about year ago.

That's your subjective POV.

JaPan hat folgendes geschrieben:
Will you do something with that?

This behavior is by design, there is no reason to change that.

JaPan hat folgendes geschrieben:
- Do you incorporate losses on differentials etc. to engine power? Can you please tell us, how much power has your cars on wheels?

Yes, wheel power is reduced.

JaPan hat folgendes geschrieben:
- Please, make some contemporary car - e.g. Lancer Evo IX - documentation for this car can be found without problems on internet.

Currently no plans for such a task.

JaPan hat folgendes geschrieben:
- There is no preload on front diff in Audi setups

The A2 has an open diff, so no preload.
The Sport quattro has no preload cause you do not need it at the front diff.

JaPan hat folgendes geschrieben:
and even preload can't be set.

That's not true.
If it is not an open diff and mechanical, you may adjust the preload.

JaPan hat folgendes geschrieben:
These car had no preload on front diffs in real?

See previous comments.

JaPan hat folgendes geschrieben:
- What will you do with center differential in cars which have it? Rely on default diff in RBR?

You said you've read the manual.
You can configure any diff you want, be it front/center/rear, to be mechanical, active, spool (e.g. center in recent WRC).
Maybe a misunderstanding or I have been somehow unclear in the docs.

JaPan hat folgendes geschrieben:

- Why every car I saw has same front and rear geometry, same stabilizers

Just a default setup. Nothing wrong with that.

JaPan hat folgendes geschrieben:
and in some times unreal spring stiffness (BMW M3 on gravel etc.?)?

No, springs and dampers are ok just as they are.

JaPan hat folgendes geschrieben:
- What about steering angle ? What is represented by 540°? How are divided cars with different stering angle in real (N4 group has 720°, WRC 540° etc.) ??

Cause it does not make sense to bother with the steering lock, which specifies how much you can turn the car's front wheels.
It is up to the user to configure his/her steering wheel to have the "real" feeling he wants to have.
Some people use game pads or the keyboard.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo März 17, 2014 19:53    Titel: International NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Zitat:
According to tyre models and case studies from several different sources.


You said in past, that these and other things in RBR are ok. Now you've come to another opinion. Why? What was exactly bad?I can accept you have some sources etc. But I've asked you (and your team), how exactly these parameters was altered. As you can compare original tyres.lsp and ours, there you can see difference. I'm asking you for the same please.

Zitat:
That's your subjective POV. (about steering reaction)

It is not answer I could expect from scientist from laboratory. And this was one of main things because of was Walter physics criticized. Was our response same ? Its your POV? I can only shake my head in disbelief. This was first and strongest protest from Karel Kuncl. Had we ignore that? No ... so please, don't ignore me in that. It is not my POV, its reality. Compare it to default and our physics. You will lose.

If you have no plans to do some current car, who will do it? How to make right engine if we don't have informations, how do you calculate it now ? In past it was also alchemy to make some engine, so you want to do it in same manner even with your plugin ?

About differentials - maybe I dont understand clearly how to make physics with active center diff.

About default setup - are you serious ??? You want us to take it as final product. Are you kidding ? You are using +60kN sprins in front and +70kN at back. On one Motorsport store in Finland they are selling progressive rear springs that are 380mm long, rate of 15/25kg especially designed for rally spec E36 M3's. Quite a gap, don't you think..? And if I use these real things .... what do you think will happen?

About steering angle - you have to lock steering angle in setup for reality! No one could be able to laborate with it because it have influence on turning wheels beyond reality. And of course .. steering rack ration should respond to real one. It also affects feedback etc. and than you should feel difference between steep steering and maybe civil car regardless what you have set on wheel.

And also other parameters in setup should be locked to prevent non real values. And you as maker of physics should know these mantinels. If you don't have set them, or you don't know them ... then it is beta product.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo März 17, 2014 20:35    Titel: International NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

we dont want talk about past,
we dont want talk about realphysic
we dont want comparation of our projects
we dont want any battle with you
take as it is, tell us bugs (or let it be) and do not disturb further, as we do with your project.
in my opinion it´s useless to discuss with you about details. You argue in same provocative style as 2012, but maybe you notice, we want do it same. You have your opnion, keep it. You have your secrets, keep it too. The driver should decide, not you and not we.
Your interest are not objectiv for the NGP project, so what you realy want here?

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo März 17, 2014 21:34    Titel: International NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Lamda, you are totally mistaken. Think about it. Please try to imagine, that my approach is really different from your thought. Please.

Every time I wrote here I only saw capabilities on both sides and very big pity, you couldn't find common speach. You can't just ignore what Walter achieved with such conditions as I cannot ignore good things you've done. Even Anbarra said good thing in RP topic, that we both achieved some goals, but you are doing it in better way.

So ... I'm here just want to illustrate you, that same critics you have pointed to us in past can be in the same manner pointed to your project. I can almost use same words. I must believe, that you are now far away from statement that everything in RBR is just excellent, and default physics is as real as it could be etc. etc. You know much about it now. As we know also.

Don't you think its time to lay weapons down and try to find common speach. You have very good things and invents in your physics. Walter's physics on other hand have functional current cars with real setups. What about mixing these knowledges together ?? That's why I'm here again. I have pretty much work out there, but I giving this another try. Maybe its hopeless.

I'm not trying to make useless criticism just to say ... you have crap. No. I'm just want to point to things which are not good, which we have IMHO better, knowing we have some other things not so good etc. In result I only want (as any real fan of RBR) to take best from both your and Walter's project, and make best result. Believe or not ... ! Idea
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di März 18, 2014 08:02    Titel: International NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I have some proposal (I don't know now if Walter could agree but I think so). Can you please write us all needed data to make physics, which will use all capabilities of your plugin? As I understand, biggest question is engine, because we really don't know, how do you calculate engine power or how to transfer real engine curve to game one to cooperate right with your plugin. Then there are some more things, maybe we can understand them from notes in physics files. Then we don't know for what is folder "figures".

From these datas we can maybe then made physics for Fabia and maybe Fiat Abarth to make some comparison, if you don't want to do these cars, or you have no data and some common speech is not found between us yet. Only problems is with dampers and bumpstops, whose you have probably original RBR's, thus we could have problems to make really real car, but anyway its worth to try.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di März 18, 2014 12:52    Titel: International NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

JaPan hat folgendes geschrieben:
Then we don't know for what is folder "figures".


this are torque curves, read the readme's..

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di März 18, 2014 14:04    Titel: International NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Very smart answer indeed sad . I haven't found in readmes nothing about it. BTW there is only one readme - in PhysicsNG folder, and there's nothing about this folder. In common.lsps are parameters NormalizedTorqueXX_NG, but what exactly these values are isn't written anywhere. As I assume "figures" folder is only for showing source of engine curve. But anyway ... your answer seems to be useless.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Apr 11, 2014 16:29    Titel: International NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Can you tell me, why you make this international forum about NGP? It's about month from my last questions and no answer. How do you ideate it? Do you really want someone to use your physics? Or this is just for fun with your cars? On german forum you mentioned something about that now somebody else could do something and make another cars. I am just trying to dig out some informations from you to make something like that and it seems to be very tough dig Mad
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Apr 11, 2014 23:09    Titel: International NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

The English NGP thread is normal service for foreign drivers because we know that German language is not easy, same applies to Czech language for us. It was not created to continue personal assistance for you or Walter.

And could you be so kind to simply stop your rants! Not innovative...

Imagine you are Corel and call Adobe to tell them you're in the graphics business and for comparison or other reasons you demand them to reveal their technology. What do you think Adobe will answer?

You may carefully reread Lamda's post from March, 17th. I have nothing to add to it.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Apr 11, 2014 23:12    Titel: International NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

There are NGP news:
* NGP plugin and physics has been updated to version 1.4
* NGP's physics.rbz and every car physics has to be updated to most recent version (reload all cars physics files!)


Enjoy and have fun! Feel free to post your opinion about NGP here.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Apr 12, 2014 10:21    Titel: International NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Viktor, we are not in position of Adobe and Corel, its very bad comparison. I thought, we are both groups which want make RBR better and without regardless of some payment. So I really don't understand why we cannot cooperate to have finally best of our "products". One reason is obvious - your unfriendly approach to us.

All I asked here for were only some informations about your plugin, how to make physics, which will use it good. No one answered me. Maybe something, but most of it not. That's why I have told these things. If anybody will try to make physics using your plugin .... how could he done it without such informations? Or if somebody else will asking you about same things you will answer gladly? Maybe... but I'm not interested in it anymore. My patience has limits.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Mai 14, 2014 17:57    Titel: International NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

hi cant download the file right when i open it a bip sounds occurs like if it were corrupted sad
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Mai 14, 2014 19:28    Titel: International NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

rename it to *.zip and all working fine
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Mai 14, 2014 21:28    Titel: International NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

3ller hat folgendes geschrieben:
hi cant download the file right when i open it a bip sounds occurs like if it were corrupted sad

Which download file makes this problem? We know that sometimes the download code does strange things. Follow Lamda's instructions and rename the strange download filename to a .zip (if that doesn't work, try .7z or .rar).

Feel free to ask again if you still have problems.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Mai 20, 2014 19:52    Titel: International NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

New version 1.8 of NGP plugin has been released and is available in our download area!

Force feedback response is configurable and has been significantly improved. RTFM and see the new parameters in the RichardBurnsRally.ini which are added by the plugin after first use.

Replace the plugin files and don't forget to update with the new matching physics.rbz.

All NGP cars have been reworked and need to be downloaded again. Don't forget this, please.

Some cars got some optimizations on their default spring setup.


Have fun and as always: feedback is welcome.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jun 23, 2014 11:42    Titel: International NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Hello,

I wanted to test this NG Physics plugin but I get error when starting to play:

Klicke auf das Bild um das Bild in der Originalgröße zu öffnen.



And second problem - I cannot drive this Opel Ascona as it just won't move. The engine is not responding to throttle.


Any help would be much appreciated.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jun 23, 2014 11:53    Titel: International NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

The NGP Plugin comes with an updated physics.rbz file.

You have to install this physics.rbz as well, and install the new cars into this file (if using RBRTM) or into the physics folder.

All this can be read in the readme, as usual.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jun 23, 2014 11:58    Titel: International NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

This is exactly what I did. But I got this error message and car won't drive at all:(
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jun 23, 2014 12:04    Titel: International NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Maybe you should redo all this things again.
Download the current version: NGP 1.8
Unzip everything and replace any existing files.

Now install the Opel Ascona 400 again.

Start RBR and try it again.

If it worked you get following overlay message:
Next Generation Physics rev. 467 ACTIVE (required rev. 467)

So the NGP has to be active and the detection of the required minimum rev. must work properly.

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