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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di März 03, 2020 10:26    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

WorkerBee hat folgendes geschrieben:
This is one point I do not understand at all.

Could you please explain why and which downforce bias/distribution would cause a sudden oversteer ?
Which effects apply here ?


Maybe sudden wasn't the right word for my explanation.
With a different downforce distribution you obvoiusly achieve a different behaviour of the car. I think I don't need to explain to you which effect less downforce on the rear axle would have in terms of behaviour of the car (obviously more oversteer as there is less grip on the rear).
Although it is a bit exaggerated, driving without a rear wing would probably be the closest example to describe the effect I was experiencing.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di März 03, 2020 12:13    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

As wrcPuncture already mentioned (although I suppose you don't care about numbers), the aero balance on R5 and pre 2017 WRCs is still 40:60, with the magnitude having been changed to some extent, as I got my hands on real data.

Again, nothing wrong with that.
From an aero perspective, these cars may have a slight nose up attitude, but that, as I and others have already mentioned, depends on so many factors like road shape, springs, dampers, driver input.
So, to show some arbitrary videos or replays won't help, as we just cannot see at all what's really going on.

It is easy to make it look one or the other way.

So the "NGP6 aero is wrong" is an oversimplification due to lack of knowledge.

Basically for an engineer the problem is not getting lots of downforce, the art is to keep the balance of the car in the majority of driving situations.
Because of the more front weight biased chassis of the R5 cars, depending on the speed, the nose will come down earlier than on the WRCs.
Setup plays a big role here before going airborne, as this affects the attitude of the car.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di März 03, 2020 13:05    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

WorkerBee hat folgendes geschrieben:
As wrcPuncture already mentioned (although I suppose you don't care about numbers), the aero balance on R5 and pre 2017 WRCs is still 40:60, with the magnitude having been changed to some extent, as I got my hands on real data.


On the paper maybe, but i've never seen an R5 car flying like it looks in NGP 6.

So WRC pre 17 Car with big rear wing has same data as R5 car with small rear wing, can't belive that tbh.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di März 03, 2020 14:06    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Hadi hat folgendes geschrieben:
On the paper maybe, but i've never seen an R5 car flying like it looks in NGP 6.

Depends on how you make it look like.
I have explained this 3 times now, what affects this "look".

Hadi hat folgendes geschrieben:
So WRC pre 17 Car with big rear wing has same data as R5 car with small rear wing, can't belive that tbh.


Come on, same data ?
Seems like you are not interested in a fair discussion.

So once again:
The aero balance has not changed from NGP5 to NGP6.
In NGP5 you "believed" that, what makes your belief different now ?

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di März 03, 2020 14:19    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

i dont want say, aerodynamic is right or it is wrong. For me it is impossible to determine.
For the behavior in te air the weight balance and the front aerodynamic are important (if you jump nearly balanced). But in the air it can be totaly different than on the ground. i read in past some artikle about aerodynamic of cars (i was construcion engineer of the windtunnel part, where the the forces of the cars are mesured and the ground airflow behavior was simulated)
you have a big part of downforce in result of front and under-body. if the distance to the ground is to high, you get flow-interruption and loose massive grip (it dependent of wich car we talking about, for sports cars it is hughe differnt).

Maybe the difference between nose up or nose down are not that big. in a video from nikolay gryazin he explain, you can brake in the air to get your nose of your (R5) car down. So the different cant that big in the air.

The oversteer behavior of WRC cars (on tarmac only ??) can also result of some not optimised setup values. The WRC17 cars have the most possibilitys to change to extrem different behaviors. And also, the WRC are not a Formel 1 car which could (with suitable speed) drive on a tunnel slab
i would offer to help you with it

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di März 03, 2020 21:17    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

2020-03-03
* updated car physics (BUGFIX: tarmac brakes)
** Audi 200 quattro GrpA
** Lancia Delta HF 4WD GrpA
** Mazda 323 BF 4WD Turbo GrpA

We apologize for the inconvenience. smile

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi März 04, 2020 10:53    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

WorkerBee hat folgendes geschrieben:
Come on, same data ?
Seems like you are not interested in a fair discussion.


Thats what you said, or do i missunderstand something on you answer "did not change" 40:60?

WorkerBee hat folgendes geschrieben:
So once again:
The aero balance has not changed from NGP5 to NGP6.
In NGP5 you "believed" that, what makes your belief different now ?


Yeah, did'nt know the numbers behind NGP 5 but it looked believeable in NGP 5.

So the weight distribution has changed from NGP 5 to 6? Or why is this big difference on the jumps?


I drove a little bit with R5 on Tarmac yesterday, had a lot of understeer on fast corners which makes it really hard to find the limit.
This makes the car very hard to drive on it's limit. The old WRC Car like Focus 06, is way easier to handle in my opinion.

If you lose the rear just slightly with R5 in fast corners it's very hard to catch.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi März 04, 2020 11:20    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I think some people need to improve their setup, r5 cars in ngp6 are perfect
good work workbee, we are eager to try more cars
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi März 04, 2020 14:03    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

please upload a replay of your perfect behavior on snow (preferably Sikkakama)
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi März 04, 2020 15:42    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Lamda hat folgendes geschrieben:
please upload a replay of your perfect behavior on snow (preferably Sikkakama)


Watch Janne's videos on YT, he recently uploaded Skoda Fabia R5 Evo at Sika.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi März 04, 2020 18:19    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Janne´s video is a great example on the unrealistic aspects of driving an r5 on snow in ngp6. It almost looks like a fwd car. The way he has to throw the car in, in order to balance the amount of understeer is a great example of what the people are complaining about. From his discription it seems it needed a very special setup as well.
One watches an onboard of kalle in sweden in a r5 and it doesnt look like that at all.

Curious thing: recently somebody uploaded a rbr install on rbrplus with pre-installed ngp 3.1 cars and there you can see some more realistic behaviors in certain situations, for example in power drifting in long corners on a r5 or a more balanced hairpin situation. Not saying 3.1 is better, but in certain things felt more balanced and predictable. One thing rally cars cannot be is unpredictable, you need to trust the car in every situation and know what it will do, and that feeling got a bit lost after 3.1. Other things evolved for the better, more things actually. So, nobody is saying ngp 6 is shit.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi März 04, 2020 21:17    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

So Jan 26, 2020 22:35 Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test:

pedrodfa hat folgendes geschrieben:
Just my two cents:

6.3 version feels quite good, nice improvement from the previous versions especially the understeer tendency. good job all around. Feels well balanced through all surfaces.

tested mainly r5, wrc, groupA on the three surfaces dry and wet.


I think I'm done with it.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi März 04, 2020 22:03    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

whats wrong with R5 on snow? I used default setup on video, yes, it is little bit understeery but you can remove this feel easily by changing some values. I spent much time for setuping cars on snow and on tarmac and now I know, there is some important values you must change. And also driving style on snow is very important too. I had big troubbles with new WRC cars, I always setuping my springs by the weight balance of the vehicles (wrc has 49,5:50,5 - you can read it from .lsp file on physics of each car). But then I found, that was the mistake.. I had no grip at rear .. then I lower the rear spring and everything seems fine. The new version of NGP is almost perfect, there is some problems on hairpins but im not sure if this is mistake of physics or mistake of tracks.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/561909182 - recorded live
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi März 04, 2020 22:21    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Yes, and I repeat it:

6.3 version feels quite good, nice improvement from the previous versions (note: 6.2, 6.1, not older ngp versions, that was not the point) especially the understeer tendency. good job all around. Feels well balanced through all surfaces.

Still, there are problems. I meant well balanced regarding the feeling testing different classes of cars, but if I refer to a particular aspect thats a different thing. So I was too generic, but now the context is the r5 cars I suppose.
This is to say, ngp is at a really good state, but has some things which I think don't match, thats all.
For me ngp is not r5 cars or wrc17, so I gave a general opinion.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi März 04, 2020 23:59    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

The video of Janne show me, im not that dump driver as i was called. He have the same problems like me (and the fabia is the better choice of R5 cars)

he needs to throw the car in to corner, than it slides, in the middle of the corner it stops sliding and the front is pulled to the outside of corner. no chance to avoid that. no chance to play with weight, brake, steer and throttle because after "throw in" you be the passanger not the driver. you cant avoid that understeer thing and you cant drive predictical and you also cant drive reactive.
The reality dosnt show us similar behavior (not even close) for r5 cars

Denis, no ofense, but you dont drive snow as snow. You drive your car as you be on wet tarmac. Thats working with NGP (i also determine that too) but in reality you have to drive on snow totaly different (compare your video with reeal ones, you will see what i mean)

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Do März 05, 2020 13:54    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Come on. You are impossible. One replay where you can't even see my steering inputs and you are saying all those things.

First, I wasn't a "passanger". It was all well practised and under control. Exactly it was a very controlled and clean run where everything happened as I wanted. Or not everything, could have been maybe 4 s faster but is difficult to make a perfect run on such a long stage specially when driving on online. You really think you can be a "passanger" while setting a WR-time by a 5 s margin?

I made the setup so I can throw the car in, "load" the springs, get the grip and go aggressively on the throttle without harmly oversteer. To make the car really responsive wihtout too much oversteer. I'm an agrressive driver and that way I can drive like I want without sliding everywhere.

Notice that the car is on powerslide in almost every corner. You just can not see that I was doing a lot of countersteering to get the straight exits. And even I would not have done the countersteer and I would not have had that setup it is a "law of physihcs" that the slide will end at some point after throwig your car as the energy of the slide decreases and the grip "wins".

So it is not just a setup or definately not the physics. It is mostly my driving. I tried to drive like that to be fast and managed to do it very well. And now you see "problems".

I can drive like that on RWD, WRC, R5, S1 Quattro or what ever car you want. I have done it on all previous physics and will do it what ever physics there will be. So don't blame the physics. They are exrtemely good exactly (thx Bee!). You can setup your R5 car to be oversteerly and drift thru the stages if you want.

Same story on hairpins. I have a big smile on my face as I'm doing nice long drifts thru them. Really enjoyable. No problems at all with spins or anything else. Just setup the car to suit your driving style or maybe, sometimes, there are room to improve the driving also. RBR is meant to be realistic and sometimes it is not as easy as Dirt Rally...

Notice also that the irl drivers can't do same kind of driving as they don't have possibility to practis the stage over and over again. It is more safe and leaves more space to react when going a bit sideways instead on "racing lines" with straight car. And I have been testing in Sikakama since I first time tried RBR 8 years ago. See the difference? Not a lot of point to compare Rovanperä in Sweden and some well practised RBR snow hotlapping.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Do März 05, 2020 17:10    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

The physics NGP6.3 are a real wonder. Here is a video of how well the R5s drive. Thanks Workbee!

Video Youtube

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Do März 05, 2020 23:11    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Honestly, if anybody can upload a setup for skoda r5 for snow which makes the car as close as possible to real life driving (not hotlaping) I would gladly test it. Just can´t reach it myself.

So, Janne explained the nature of the driving in the video comes from basically it being a hotlap situation where he has driven thousands of times the same exact corners and used a setup to exactly fit that situation. So I suppose its not the example Bee wanted it to be or is it? Cause its so specific and totally conditioned.

Also, not sure if the grip "wins" after a certain time in slide, it just depends on several factors doesnt it? The point here is that for some people it seems that the grip "wins" too soon in a way.

In tarmac hairpins with wrc17/19 cars, is not that the whole thing is wrong, of course not, but in my opinion there could be a bigger zone to drive between uncontrolable oversteer and anavoidable understeer. And I dont really have a problem driving hairpins anyway, but that is not the point, our performance should not matter to evaluate the physics - this means its not because I may set world records (which I never will) that the physics are great, which seems to be the case with some top drivers - for you the physics are always at their best. Competition has nothing to do with this subject in my view, thats an entirely different world.

When I brought Rovanpera is just because I can easily acess his onboards on wrc all live, but for me serves the same purpose to bring a completely unknown driver. It was just to compare the car behaviour and the differences sliding.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr März 06, 2020 01:02    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Zitat:
Come on. You are impossible. One replay where you can't even see my steering inputs and you are saying all those things.


i dont want blame you for driving, i saw the movement of the car and it was similar than mine. i described only what i felt, not what i predicted you felt. I see not much differences so i can imagine how you steer. feel free to upload a video with steering wheel.

and if you look to the detail, it is same for you (as i wrote before). maybe not that much, but you get the same. you throw your car heavy in to corner, but if the corner is a little bit longer the car is no more turning in the middle of the corner. i bet you steer heavy in to corner to avoid understeer (or i want say the pull front to the outside thing)
If you would not throw that heavy, your slide would also stop before the corner ends. but look to real onboard videos. the driver mostly give only a little kick in and the car is switching the weight to oversteer. In RBR this will never happen with only a little bit braking an a little steering kick. after you get oversteer in the reality you have to carefull with steering and throttle to turn your car not to far. With NGP you never have any problems get to much oversteer on snow (with R5)

you took what you get and make the best (and you was good in it). but if you compare reality with your video, you see the big differences. In reality you have flow on snow. On sikkakama it should be feel like surfing from corner to corner. your focus should only need for balance the drifts and get the weight transfer to the next corner. But in your words, you "loosing" allways at little longer curves to understeer. there is no way to change this. in reality you have the possibility to stay in to a drift with only steering and spinning tires

As i said, the fabia is maybe the R5 with the best behavior, try out the I20R5, in my opinion it is the worst, maybe than you feel what i mean

i compare again the WRC16 wit R5. Basicly both have the same behavior. the difference is, the WRC reacts faster, braking have massive more impact (you realy can use it to go controlled oversteer) and your tires dont slow down in the drift. that makes a complete different feeling. but if you drive to carefull/easy you get the same as R5

and guys, it is not a proven for a realistic behavior if you can drive the car fast. i take the originalphysic and beat you all, but it will be not more realistic at all.

i want only a realistic behavior, dosnt matter how fast i can drive with it .

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr März 06, 2020 21:06    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

What's the point to compare with NGP 6.2. vid when talking about current iteration.

Also like Joonas said, it's far from reality on his run compared to reality conditions wise etc. All those points Joonas made about the stage (and knowledge) and the fact that Joonas has set it that way.

There's also one absolutely major thing why you shouldn't compare this hotlap-esque run to reality. The reason is road degredation. In real life you have ruts, or at least the clean line where you need to drive, otherwise you won't have grip. In RBR we have whole width of the road with same grip level. That gives you soooooo much more options on driving line, driving style and setup style. I'd say if you insist on comparing RBR footage to real life footage you should use a stage that is narrow, therefor forcing the driver more like in real life, in some sort of pre-determined line. In real life it's determined by the driving line, on RBR it would be determined by the width of the road.

Also on ruts help the car turn into the corner "by itself" to some extent and slides do ensue, if the front stays in the ruts and rear get out of them, and to the less-grippy stuff, of course the car's gonna slide. No ruts in RBR to do that.

Try them cars on narrow stages like Peklo Snow etc to get conditions like I described. And really work on the setup too, you can really do wonders to the car's behaviour with the highly varied setup options of R5s.

And to be honest, to be able to compare real life run and RBR run the cars should have a similar (or close to similar) setup for good comparison. It's not that realistic to me if a car behaves like on your real life videos regardless of the setup.

Edit: the second sentence.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr März 06, 2020 23:33    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

One thing I still want to make clear is that the setup I used wasn't really a understeerly one. How I think setups and driving is that you have to have a responsive and nose happy setup in order to drive "fwd-style". Then you can turn just that much that is needed to make the perfect line and trust that the car will rotate enough without setting it to wide slide. With understeerly setup you would have to turn much more to make enough rotation which will eventually cause oversteer in many situations.

"But in your words, you "loosing" allways at little longer curves to understeer. there is no way to change this. in reality you have the possibility to stay in to a drift with only steering and spinning tires".

There is a possibility to stay in a drift or keep the nose in also in RBR: Just turn the steering wheel. Or use left foot braking. If it is not working, change your setup to make it work. Choose another driving line that is different than those smooth ones that I was doing. Make the grip balance of the setup more nose happy so you can keep on sliding. Make the setup less grippy so you have to slide to make good times.

I really tried to understood the problem you are seeing. And I think if there is any problem behind this case it is that there is too much grip which allow us to drive "tarmac way" also in gravel and snow. But as it is possible to do a tail happy setup too I think this is not a big problem if problem at all.

Mostly I think the "unreal behavior" you see comes from what Janne said about the different road in real life and RBR. I also really want as realistics physics as we can get and I like to setup the car to look like irl etc. but still you can not do the same things than irl as long as the roads are like Janne described.

I don't have energy to start a long conversation about this. Just wanted to tell my opinion to all who are reading this topic as I was the man behind the wheel and setup on that video. And most of all I wanted that WorkerBee knows that there are me and a lot of other drivers who really like the work you are doing with the physics and to give you a motivation to continue your awesome work despite that the feedback you seems to get is quite negative.
 
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pedrodfa
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa März 07, 2020 23:52    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I actually didn´t realize that Janne´s video was ngp 6.2, since Bee pointed to that video (or maybe he didnt mean that one and that was my mistake).
In that case yes, its not that helpful to use it.

Anyway, after so many justifications from both finns (flying ones I must say), and I imagine that the roots in real roads make a huge difference, I still can´t see people maintaining a power slide on a long corner on a loose surface in ngp 6.3 r5. Im not saying its not possible, but this is what I see,
-excerpt from Janne´s video (who is driving incredibly well, hope you don't mind i use your video as example):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LUbfI2eA58&feature=youtu.be

full video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-LbB1uQtOc&t=607s


In that situation I feel that the car should have turned much more responding to the throttle but he has to go full lock to fight the understeer - could be the setup, but then again, there´s always an escape for justification, thats why I would like to see it working.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: So März 08, 2020 11:41    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Two things come to mind when watching that. First in slow motion and then on my own vid.

1. It's a wet gravel stage with snow tires and a modified setup to give me traction under acceleration. So conditions of the situation are kinda fighting the long continuous powerslides. Although, I do manage to recover from that understeer back to "neutral" rotation still in the corner.

2. I make a small mistake early on in the corner. I correct the initial slide too much too early, thus killing my slide and having to begin car's rotation from nothing again with a straight car that's accelerating (grip more in the rear) with a low grip condition. It takes a while but I do manage to eventually get back to the corner again.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi März 18, 2020 08:58    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Any news about new cars? biggrin
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi März 18, 2020 21:42    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

WorkerBee hat folgendes geschrieben:
No plans to make physics for the v2.
We already have enough Porsches in NGP6.


Hi, Bee! I ask you to consider replacing the Porsche 911 GT3 RS (2010) RGT with the PORSCHE GT3 RGT V2. It’s annoying when such a well-developed model (PORSCHE GT3 RGT V2) was forgotten, and the model with the interior of the semi-finished product represents such exceptional cars as the Porsche 911). Still, the Porsche 911 is reference cars, and I want them to be like that in RBR.
 
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