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wrcPuncture
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Do Feb 27, 2020 22:26    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Well, no Bee.. thats why I asked.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Feb 28, 2020 01:31    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Bee is right in this way. R5 cars are totally mechanical about diffs. For example if you take out rear brake discs, car will brake always on four wheels due to shaft as you described. And the handbrake works by special brake cylinder which have two positions. If you are pull handbrake on first position, you release a rear diff, so the car is only fwd and if you pull handbrake more, it blocks rear wheels only. If audi knows this in group b era, s1 will be ultimate machine 😀 sorry for my english, I hope you will understand what I described
 
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wrcPuncture
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Feb 28, 2020 13:05    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Thanks Dennis. I understand. But what about 2011-16 wrc cars? I thought that drivetrain is same/similar here
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Feb 28, 2020 13:58    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

dont know... I saw this function on fabia r5, doesnt have experience with WRC
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Feb 28, 2020 14:29    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

wrcPuncture hat folgendes geschrieben:
Thanks Dennis. I understand. But what about 2011-16 wrc cars? I thought that drivetrain is same/similar here


2011 WRC and R5 have exactly the same drivetrain specification.
Front/rear mechanical LSD diff, center locked (or fixed shaft, whatever).
There is kind of clutch to detach the rear drivetrain when the handbrake is applied, and you can then pull the car with just FWD while the rear wheels are locked up.

All this is known for several years now and has not been changed since the beginning of NGP.

The brake bias is not fixed at 50:50, this is absolute nonsense.
I really wonder how anyone could be able to feel this.

The early quattros had this locked center diff, and that detaching clutch was maybe used in the RS200 (from my memory), and later then in group A cars (think 88 or 89 in Lancia, I am too lazy to check now).

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Feb 29, 2020 16:20    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Zitat:
The brake bias is not fixed at 50:50, this is absolute nonsense.
I really wonder how anyone could be able to feel this.
it is proven right but it is also different as you have a center differential. your axle F/R turning on the same speed. it is impossible that one axle slip the other one not. the front and the rear differential only change it to left or right. im a little bit weak about what is happend if the right and the left side of one axle (here i take rear axle) goes slip but the other axle (front) have enough grip. the front axle must be try to push the rear axle to keep turning, so also the rear brake work as brake for front isnt it?

differentials are working in the way as they should, but i cant say if they have enough impact (but i belive they do exact right by initial torque)

if the WRC16 and R5 brakes same (yes it does practical) what is the reason of the hughe different between?

I started some more test and change the Polo R5 car setup to the Polo WRC16 values (as possible). it dosnt help in general. I got some minior improvements for reaction speed as i set the caster angle as low as possible (reduce top mount position to 0). But the main problem wasnt solve (including the other things i tried in this way).

it is hard to get oversteer on turn in (more easy with Polo and Fabia, the I20R5 is a stiff bitch) and i wasnt able to hold the drift. If i drift balanced the spinning speed of the tire slows down to not spinning and you switch to understeer. If you are switched, the front of the car is pulled hard to the outside of the corner. Maybe the WRC16 have a better weight balance, maybe that more on power avoid the slow down of the tire, so you dont fall so easy to a understeer behavior.

if i compare it to real videos i saw 2 things which it was impossible in RBR

1. long drifts balanced with throttle and steering
2. change from light undeersteer to oversteer inside a corner with throttle (maybe with light lift the throttle, maybe light braking, that is not possible to see. motorsound and speed wasnt changed much during this action in real)

The cz plugin have sometimes the bug, that you get some values from your setup use last. I tried the PoloR5 after PoloWRC and wondering why The R5 have 6 gears! but the 6 gear dosnt right. Some tests later, i couldnt load the "default" setup, he allways use the last one (maybe default means last loaded)
So we must carefull to not trapped in this bug. only a RBR restart solve this problem (doent know exactly whats is the reason)

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Feb 29, 2020 17:35    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Lamda hat folgendes geschrieben:
Zitat:
The brake bias is not fixed at 50:50, this is absolute nonsense.
I really wonder how anyone could be able to feel this.
it is proven right but it is also different as you have a center differential. your axle F/R turning on the same speed. it is impossible that one axle slip the other one not. the front and the rear differential only change it to left or right. im a little bit weak about what is happend if the right and the left side of one axle (here i take rear axle) goes slip but the other axle (front) have enough grip. the front axle must be try to push the rear axle to keep turning, so also the rear brake work as brake for front isnt it?


I still don't get it.

What has this to do with the brake bias ?

We don't have a center differential in these cars, as it is locked all the time.
So it is no differential strictly speaking.
The F/R axles are rotating at equal speeds, that is correct.
But how does this affect brake bias, which you stated to be 50:50 all the time ?

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Feb 29, 2020 21:21    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Zitat:
But how does this affect brake bias, which you stated to be 50:50 all the time

practical the axels cant have different slip, allways, both rotating or both dont.

Zitat:
For example if you take out rear brake discs, car will brake always on four wheels due to shaft as you described.


if you brake and slow down one axle you also slow down the other one. dosnt matter if you have more brakepower on rear, front axle will also braking, because you havn´t turning speed differeences

in RBR (and also real) you cant influence the car moving behavior with the brake balance

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 BeitragVerfasst am: So März 01, 2020 08:44    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Seems like a few guys out there are fundamentally misunderstanding vehicle dynamics in the context of braking.

Let's pick the Fabia R5 as an example.

On tarmac the brake bias, depending on how hard you brake, is roundabout 80:20.

On gravel it is in the vicinity of 70:30.

Not anywhere close to the 50:50 you are talking about all the time.

I am really tired of having to explain the simplest basic physical principles over and over again.

So let's just drop it. Rolling Eyes

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 BeitragVerfasst am: So März 01, 2020 13:47    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

What is braking, what is accelating

accelating, tire turns more than the car speed is
braking, tire turns less than car speed is

if you link to same speed, the axles does the same
, you can set what you want, it changed nothing for the car behavior (exept the torque for the axle differentials R/L)

I dont know why we must discuss about things, which dosnt matter for the problem, because it working proven right in NGP!

The main question is, why are the R5 less dynamic than reality. what is the different to the working "ok" WRC16.

A solution for that will also be a solution for the snowwall problem. the snowwallproblem result only from slow car reaction. if you touch the snowwall (mostly with one tire) the tire will brake hard and let turn the car. If you able to react and countersteer that, you be able to avoid the turn and the further absorb in to thee snowwall. if the car react to slow, you be only passenger withoout control, if the car react, it is to late.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: So März 01, 2020 14:58    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

just to say, im with lambda, hadi, etc. There´s something quite not right. there should be a more gradual controllable drift situation with r5´s. A good test is for example to go to lambda´s test track and try to do consecutive donuts in the first circle (the smaller one) and for example compare with this famous roundabout in catalunya rally:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XS2knbbsSE
there´s 2 r5´s at the end of the video.

another perspective from Kalle´s instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B4KG3Jghk3_/

I know bee doesnt compare ngp to videos but...

I don't know the technicalities of this whole thing, just giving my 2 cents.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: So März 01, 2020 17:20    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

pedrodfa hat folgendes geschrieben:
just to say, im with lambda, hadi, etc. There´s something quite not right. there should be a more gradual controllable drift situation with r5´s. A good test is for example to go to lambda´s test track and try to do consecutive donuts in the first circle (the smaller one) and for example compare with this famous roundabout in catalunya rally:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XS2knbbsSE
there´s 2 r5´s at the end of the video.

another perspective from Kalle´s instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B4KG3Jghk3_/

I know bee doesnt compare ngp to videos but...

I don't know the technicalities of this whole thing, just giving my 2 cents.


it is quite easy to reproduce it with default setup and some changes on diffs: https://streamable.com/53t0g There it seems to be quite ok, we have to count much bigger diameter of the "roundabout".
I think we are talking about different things now.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: So März 01, 2020 17:49    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Good example video, just look how much steering angle you need to control the drift.
In my opinion thats way to much, a lot of time almost opposite lock.

Maybe you can improve with lot of changes on the setup, but imo it should be easier with standard setup as well.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: So März 01, 2020 18:04    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Poor wrcPuncture, quickly making a video to show that it can be done, even with a much bigger radius than the roundabout at Catalunya (or whereever it was supposed to be).

But unfortunately his driving was far from perfect, so Hadi stepped in to throw a load of shit on him.

Guys, this discussion is getting ridiculous, you pick every detail you just don't understand or don't like and blame it on the physics.

Brake bias is shit, vehicle dynamics is shit, snowwalls are shit, steering is shit.

A WRC car comes at three times the cost of a R5, and you are trying to tell me that the R5 should behave almost the same as a WRC ??
Are you serious ?

There is nothing wrong with the R5, they are just a little bit weaker than a WRC in all aspects.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: So März 01, 2020 19:06    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

This was a good example on how different it is reality vs ngp6.
Like Hadi said they don’t need to be putting as much steering input to control the car, they actually use more the throttle (you can hear it) to control the angle. Instead wrcpuncture is just full throttle all the way. Even then he has a hard time maintaining a stable angle, the car is too unsettled.
Just my view, nobody needs to take offense.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: So März 01, 2020 23:56    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Zitat:
But unfortunately his driving was far from perfect, so Hadi stepped in to throw a load of shit on him.


wow, is a post of hadi deleted, did i miss something???

Zitat:
Brake bias is shit
ones more was deleted?

Zitat:
vehicle dynamics is shit
cant remember to read this, who was wrote??

Zitat:
A WRC car comes at three times the cost of a R5, and you are trying to tell me that the R5 should behave almost the same as a WRC ??
Are you serious ?
open your eyes and compare yourself. there is nothing wrong with that, if you need grind every 1/100 second. i belive if you cut engine and turbo from your list, the differences between R5 are not that big anyhow should the base behavior not far away.

The 2nd point is, i must set the R5 with all possible setup options in the direction as i see in reality. the wrc working with basic and have also room for changes in any direction

Zitat:
But unfortunately his driving was far from perfect
ok, show us how it can be done right, we can compare easy every replay.

we spent many hours to find the trick, the holy gral of driving but i didnt see someone have done it. what can we do to drive the car well and comparable to reality ????

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Zuletzt bearbeitet von Lamda am Mo März 02, 2020 00:02, insgesamt 2-mal bearbeitet
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: So März 01, 2020 23:58    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

pedrodfa hat folgendes geschrieben:
This was a good example on how different it is reality vs ngp6.
Like Hadi said they don’t need to be putting as much steering input to control the car, they actually use more the throttle (you can hear it) to control the angle. Instead wrcpuncture is just full throttle all the way. Even then he has a hard time maintaining a stable angle, the car is too unsettled.
Just my view, nobody needs to take offense.


firstly, I'm not Kalle (champion btw..), I'm not sitting in a real car to feel every little movement. So it's natural that I react maybe later then I would in real life. So that's the reason why I need so much steering angle.
I'm almost sure he used full throttle and almost no countersteer (I expected this as it is small diameter roundabout): https://streamable.com/ia23q
Anyway, I can do some crazy things with R5 around cones etc. So I dont think there is something wrong on tarmac. I have some problems on snow..that's all.

And I have to apologize to Bee about brake balance. Seems that czech plugin betrayed me and I was not careful about setup changes/loading. BB works for R5..dot.
But I would really like to know, how "no central diff" affects(or not affects) to brake balance. Do you have any tips for study material? I mean it humbly. I just want to know more..
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo März 02, 2020 08:16    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

wrcPuncture hat folgendes geschrieben:
pedrodfa hat folgendes geschrieben:
This was a good example on how different it is reality vs ngp6.
Like Hadi said they don’t need to be putting as much steering input to control the car, they actually use more the throttle (you can hear it) to control the angle. Instead wrcpuncture is just full throttle all the way. Even then he has a hard time maintaining a stable angle, the car is too unsettled.
Just my view, nobody needs to take offense.


firstly, I'm not Kalle (champion btw..), I'm not sitting in a real car to feel every little movement. So it's natural that I react maybe later then I would in real life. So that's the reason why I need so much steering angle.

This is what I meant with "far from perfect".
You need a lot of practice to actually get a feel for the car without feeling it.
Especially as the R5 are not wrcPuncture's favorite cars.

Simple as that, no critizism from my side here.
I just wanted to point out that it is not fair to nitpick about his countersteering or use of throttle.


wrcPuncture hat folgendes geschrieben:
I'm almost sure he used full throttle and almost no countersteer (I expected this as it is small diameter roundabout): https://streamable.com/ia23q
Anyway, I can do some crazy things with R5 around cones etc. So I dont think there is something wrong on tarmac. I have some problems on snow..that's all.

Absolutely agree here, the small diameter is crucial in our example.


wrcPuncture hat folgendes geschrieben:

And I have to apologize to Bee about brake balance. Seems that czech plugin betrayed me and I was not careful about setup changes/loading. BB works for R5..dot.

Copy that.
See explanation below.

wrcPuncture hat folgendes geschrieben:

But I would really like to know, how "no central diff" affects(or not affects) to brake balance. Do you have any tips for study material? I mean it humbly. I just want to know more..

A none or 100% locked center diff affects the brake balance as it makes the front and rear drive train rotate at the same angular velocity.
Here things get complicated and you have to take into account the wheel loads.
Basically the brake balance or bias changes while braking, because of the change in wheel loads.
At steady state, driving on a straight line, you have, say, 55:45 wheel load.
A brake bias of 55:45 would then be optimal.
As you brake harder, the front wheels will load more, the rear less.
Depending on the deceleration, that is negative g's, you may end up having 80:20 wheel load, and would be able to use the 80:20 brake bias which is set in the setup.

This is independent of the locked center diff !

It is just about wheel loads and wheel forces. Forces between tire and ground surface.
And it is these forces to slow down the car in the end.
The tire force acts on the wheel, via the loaded tire radius it transfers to a torque.
So basically you can have 80% torque at the front wheels, and 20% at the rear.

But still, all tires may rotate at the same speed !!
Our center diff is still "locked", front and rear drivetrain rotate "in sync", if you put it that way.

It is simply wrong and confusing to think about the front brakes braking the rear, via the center diff, or the rear brakes braking the front.
When simulating the reality you just sum up all forces and torques, and in the end, the sum is zero. Simple as that.

So, which role does the locked center diff play in this case ?
As it forces the front/rear drivetrain to rotate in sync, the slip ratios of the tires are the same.
But as we have separate front and rear diffs, things start to get much more complicated, as the wheels on both sides may spin or rotate on their own, so to say.
But let's assume front and rear have that same slip ratio.
What does this mean ?
Slip ratio is required to build the longitudinal forces. Remember, these slow down or accelerate the car in the end.
How much longitudinal force is generated depends on slip ratio and wheel load.
Slip ratio depends on wheel load as well.
The more loaded front would require a higher slip ratio than the rear to build up the maximum possible force.
But it is forced to rotate at the same velocity as the lighter loaded rear, which in turn requires less slip ratio for maximum force.

So in the end a locked center diff prevents the vehicle from building the maximum possible forces, and makes the vehicle less sensitive to all kinds of driver inputs.

But still, brake bias can be set and has an effect.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo März 02, 2020 16:54    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

WorkerBee hat folgendes geschrieben:
But unfortunately his driving was far from perfect, so Hadi stepped in to throw a load of shit on him.


So thats what you call a load of shit, really? Rolling Eyes

Since it looks like you gave a shit about what we are talking about i made a Video.

I think i wrote this issue not only once, the downforce is still wrong in NGP 6 if you compare R5 vs. WRC.

First of all on the jump you can see whats wrong and i'm pretty shure that explains the understeer issue on the R5 cars.

FFB "issue" when car has wheelspin or lose traction.
The wheel rattle/shaking on NGP 6 is super anoying. Unfortunatly you can't see it very good on the video but the wheel is shaking a lot i can tell you...
Maybe it's not a problem on lower end hardware but with my fanatec it's way to much.

And finally i found something which helps on Tarmac Hairpins on NGP 6, i turned down the anti roll bar to 5-6Kn on front and rear for the WRC 2017 car.
But still you need to work a lot more on the wheel to control the drift.

Video:
https://youtu.be/qKOWrE5wWYY

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo März 02, 2020 17:10    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Hadi hat folgendes geschrieben:
the downforce is still wrong in NGP 6 if you compare R5 vs. WRC.

First of all on the jump you can see whats wrong and i'm pretty sure that explains the understeer issue on the R5 cars.


That was also my experience when testing the new WRC cars, somehow I didn't have the idea to test it on a bigger jump. I always had massive problems with very sudden oversteer in fast corners, no matter how I built my setup. It just felt like I had different (wrong) tyres on the rear axle. As this problem increased with the speed of the car I already sensed an aero issue. This video confirms my theory, I've rarely ever seen a WRC car fly that leveled out, they always tend to land rear first at higher speeds, whilst the R5 cars generally don't have this issue. I think everyone who visited or even watched Rally Finland with arguably the biggest jumps on high speeds can confirm this.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo März 02, 2020 20:29    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

deggster hat folgendes geschrieben:
I always had massive problems with very sudden oversteer in fast corners, no matter how I built my setup. It just felt like I had different (wrong) tyres on the rear axle. As this problem increased with the speed of the car I already sensed an aero issue.


This is one point I do not understand at all.

Could you please explain why and which downforce bias/distribution would cause a sudden oversteer ?
Which effects apply here ?

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo März 02, 2020 22:16    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

@Hadi, you compare NGP5 with NGP6. There some points and you think NGP6 does it wrong? Or you want only know why it was changed?

Aboout the FFB Problem we do not realy discuss about, this flattering ffb is realy anoying. Did you try to reduce the physicsUpdateRate in the richardburnsrally.ini?

the flying cars, based on the reason it happend, both scenary are possible. it can work totaly different affecting by weight balance, aerodynamic and suspension (if you not compare the same jump, also the track itself is another point)
what do you think is right?

If i show your drift driving, NGP6 looks more natural than your NGP5 example. The big difference, with NGP5 it looks you throw the handbrake, the car swings out and slide without throttle. NGP6 needs throttle. As i compare it with reality the handbrake turn dosnt work without spinning tire and throttle. In reality its looking a little bit more smoth but basicly similar.

I didnt spend much time for tarmac testing but i remember i was fine with it. for me the problems starts if you have slippy surface with R5 cars. It means not, that the problem is only hit the R5 cars, but you get the worst result with it. Other classes have more room to work on setup things, but for R5 cars it is not possible to get a solution with setup changes.

i net say one or another thing is not working right, reeasons are only ideas what could it be. there many things which have big cross effects. Im not able to sort out, im not able to check more than practical behavior, and i have no chance to try (maybe stupid) ideas to isolate the right one.

But im sure, my experience is enough to decide NGP6 does something total different than reality (on snow), here i totaly agree with WRC puncture.

some little tests with brake balance gives me the confirmation, that brake balance did not change important things. maybe some minior effect but they maybe get lost in the shuffle of normal differences during driving.
(please no more discuss about brake balance, i belive your theoretical explaination). The main problem stays and the reason for it stays also unknown yet.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di März 03, 2020 00:26    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

@Hadi: I don't want to be nitpicker.. but if I watch your Cote wrc NGP6 replay. Your driving is "strange"(I don't mean it wrong). These huge slides will be very spectular in real life.. but if you realize the speed, corner radius and moment when you pull handbrake, then you have to receive these big and not so well controlable drifts. If you find some comparable real video with so long hairpins like these, you will see that wrc drivers go through quite differently. They pull handbrake just before apex, only to help car turn. Your driving style is much closer to stages like Luceram (there are some hairpins where you can really pull handbrake quite early, as wrc drivers do in real life in these type of "short/sharp" hairpins. https://youtu.be/wTaB0udJsYM?t=59 and I'm quite happy how comparable we can drive Luceram hairpins with this video. (another champion btw..smile) ....and btw2, I'm the one who was blamed by pedrodfa: "People please, sturec hairpins drive themselves, its like on rails, I don't think its a good test for this situation, too easy." smile

To R5 aero. As I was quite curious about downforce of NGP5 vs NGP6. Maybe many things changed, maybe not..doesnt matter for me now. NGP6 R5 has different values, BUT.. the "ratio" between front and rear downforce is totally same.. So we have more (or less) downforce (I don't know, in the context of whole physic) but ratio between front and rear is the same.

Anyway @WorkerBee thank you for explanation of brake bias vs. non central diff! Really appreciate this! tach

I'm just still not satisfied with R5 on snow (and please, others, don't connect to this topic with another things, me and Lamda talking just about snow behaviour of R5 cars!).
I understand that R5 is "weaker" in all way against these older wrc cars with same "non diff". But as I watched some another drivers/players, it seems that everybody struggle with same thing - the car tends to understeer, althought if we use some huge scandivian flick or whatever on snow. And if it stay in slide/oversteer, then it is just for a few moments and front wants to go straight again. I just dont understand this situation. Is the R5 really so "weaker" in terms of power/torque that it can't hold spinning studded tyres in sliding? With DS3 WRC it's pleasure to drive snow stages, with R5 cars not so much. I'm very critical to myself, and I also tried many setup changes, but I still didn't find the way how to keep R5 in sliding on snow. Or to be more precise, how to keep rear axle in "longer" slide. For me it feels like rear tyres are full studded, and front half studded. I don't know how to describe it properly, but hope you understand what I mean. gruebel
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di März 03, 2020 08:07    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Regarding the snow behavior basically the majority of testers was absolutely satisfied with rev. 756/758, see offline testing thread.

That's why we published it this way.

Few weeks later a bunch of guys pull the cat out of the sack again and try to convince me that NGP6 is "total different than reality".

Are you serious ?
I have no reason to publish something far from reality, that just doesn't make sense at all.

No matter the changes I would make in a 6.4 version, there will always be nitpickers throwing a load of shit on it.

You can't please everyone ...

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di März 03, 2020 09:17    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Lamda hat folgendes geschrieben:
@Hadi, you compare NGP5 with NGP6. There some points and you think NGP6 does it wrong? Or you want only know why it was changed?

Aboout the FFB Problem we do not realy discuss about, this flattering ffb is realy anoying. Did you try to reduce the physicsUpdateRate in the richardburnsrally.ini?

the flying cars, based on the reason it happend, both scenary are possible. it can work totaly different affecting by weight balance, aerodynamic and suspension (if you not compare the same jump, also the track itself is another point)
what do you think is right?

If i show your drift driving, NGP6 looks more natural than your NGP5 example. The big difference, with NGP5 it looks you throw the handbrake, the car swings out and slide without throttle. NGP6 needs throttle. As i compare it with reality the handbrake turn dosnt work without spinning tire and throttle. In reality its looking a little bit more smoth but basicly similar.


NGP 6 is wrong on downforce.
This is reproduceable, every time you go over this jump on full throttle it will behave the same!

In my opinion it was perfect on NGP 5 and very compareable to what you see in real life.

R5 pretty neutral in Air and WRC Car tends to go down with the rear first.
Extreme ex. from Thierry Neuville in Finland 2019, when terrain goes down after jump and you go full throttle over the jump...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKpp6Z6JWME

FFB updateRate is at 150 iirc, will test this afternoon again with lower values.
But i can't go lower than 144...

I spent a lot of time with the car setup for the Hyundai i20 WRC 2017 (NGP5), and imo thats also what you see in real life.
Does'nt matter if they are off or on throttle, if you have a good timing with the handbrake and a good entry speed into the corner, the differentials help the car and driver to make the perfect hairpin without putting to much work on the steering.

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