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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Jan 17, 2020 14:21    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Ogier testing Yaris, in the first hairpin he is counter steering to manage the oversteer:
https://youtu.be/oR8VF4X4gkg?t=104

In the second one (downhill), he understeers completely:
https://youtu.be/oR8VF4X4gkg?t=142

I really think that hairpins should be tricky to master them perfectly.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Jan 17, 2020 17:57    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

on first video the rear was completely kicked off because of ice and nevertheless he can catch this by countersteer ( I think he didnt use a full lock). It is impossible catch this in RBR

on second video we can clearly see that after a half of hairpin is ice and because of this he understeers.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Jan 18, 2020 15:51    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

dont compare actual monte test videos with RBR tarmac. it is a different drive near 0°C or 25°C. in reality you neeed diffe1rent tyres. in RBR it is not implement.


After some more tests, with different surrfaces and differrent cars. I dont want givee a stateement for every car or track but i see and feel a general issue for "slippy" surfaces.

in comperation with reeal videos and real situations (focused for gravel and snow, tarmac looking ok for me (eexceept it coould a littele bit sharper car reaction)

1. You have to steer much more to get thee similar result as in reality. if i set my steering wheeel to 540°, which is proven real steering wheel angle (lock to lock) for WRC/R5 cars, i neeed to steer 180° to onee side to get the same result as 90° in reality. With this handicap you are not able to steer or countersteer as in reality, you also cant make good initial kicks on steering to move your car more to oversteer. In general it limit your possibilities to push your car as you want, in result you stay mostly understeered.

2. You need much more braking to get the needed weight transfer for a instable/weak rear axle. If you brake that hard (what you need for right weight transfer) you slow to much down in fast and mid fast corner. So you have two choices but never a realistic result (1. brakee easy-> weight transfer is not enough; 2. Brake hard-> you are to slow .... both endss in a more understeer behavior)

3. your driftangle is to small. the angle where you can ballanced thee drift with acceelation and countersteering is too small. mostly you need to "steeer in" to hold the drift (not counteersteering). result: it feels more understeering than oversteering.

I think it would be a suitable experiment to change something to correct this, maybe all other problems will disaper because it was a result of wrong driving by reason of this less possibillitys.

i try also much to correct it with seetups, but it is impossible! if you change it more in that needed dirrection you get stange reesults on another side. The setup valuas will be also far away from known realistic values.

I dont think we are all dump drivers. many of us are 10 years and more in to RBR and rally topic. I know some people, they try real rallycars after RBR experiences and say it was easy to tranfer the knowledge to reeality.
It is not easy to draw the right conclusions. It also makes no sense if it stay as "perfect" but nobody can reproduce a realistic behavior in practical way (i never saw a replay from Bee nor another good virtual or real driver which prove the theoretical right behavior with NGP6)

Zitat:
As my former test driver you should know by now that I do not base physics on videos.
So I am not going to show a single one to prove anything or as an example how it should be.
You don't learn vehicle dynamics by watching videos. This seems to be one point where we do not agree.


Im talking about our topic with a driver with real experience. i never drove a AWD on snow, i also never drove spike tyres. I describe him how i think it works (how to drive and what the car does in result of). he telling me, i discribe it exact as it is in reality! So dont tell us, nobody can learn driving or car dynamic from videos. Maybe you are not able to learn something from it. but you should take it as a prove for your work. Its sounds like you think your are godlike, you know all and never make mistakes (i know it better....). It is a shame, that you are so closed in your mind, that you all ignore against your opinion. Im not the one, who said NGP6 is crap (on the contrary), but there is a general mistake or misunderstanding, which make it impossible to drive virtual as the reality. The basic behavior looks right for me and tarrmac looks better than ever.
I also not say, you are basicly wrong with your mind how to drive and how should the car moving. I would happy NGP6 would do it as you tell us it should do....

You can also shoot against my words, i know you to well to take it personal. Im to dumb to understand all behind formulas and values, but im not to dump to understand how to drive and im not to dumb to compare the RBR NGP result with reality. Hopfully one day you like to work for a realistic simulation not for theoretical with some room for weakness in the general result. In reality, science is a theory as long it is not proven by reality. You should think about why......

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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jan 19, 2020 12:41    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

the 270 steer lock limit is not real, you just cannot correct the car as much as needed with this steering on gravel, i like the physics but this steering limit is crap. In real life, you can bring back the car from oversteer, in here , if it goes it just goes.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jan 19, 2020 12:43    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

You mean in the car setup? 270 is lock to center. So lock to lock would be 540. R5 uses 540. So it's correct. But can use whatever dos you want to use. Just set it in your wheel profil
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jan 19, 2020 13:00    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Yes in the car setting, i tried to drive the yaris wrc and it just feels so wrong, in real life they bring the car back even in 90 degree angle, in game you just cant drive it as agressively as they do it. In profiler my wheel is 540 lock to lock. And you cant change the wheel lock in car setup, it s locked, thats why it pisses me.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jan 19, 2020 13:19    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

again, the setup 270° have nothing to do with wheel lock. it is a value for steering geear which defined the maximum possible wheeldeflection (nothing more). the steering wheel lock is set ONLY by your steering wheel driver.

this value is proven realistic right (technical homologation)! It is also proven by comparing videos with RBR wheeldeflection

set your wheelangle in your steering wheel driver to aprox 300° and steer as same as you did with 540° you will drive more agressivly. but this isn´t a general solution because with that, you recive some other strange behavior in other situations.I belive it is something different on tyre/surface behavior

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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jan 19, 2020 13:41    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I was also under the impression that 540º was the real standard that for example all r5 cars use. But then I saw this video of Nikolay Gryazin (real driver competing with r5 cars for those who don't know..):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhiveiSwBU8

In here he is using 440º lock to lock in RBR and says that he checked it in the real r5 car. He mentions it in the answer to the coment of Alex Lame, just translate from russian.
And personally using 440º as lambda says feels closer to what one sees from real life.
Having said this, I wonder if in the WRC cars they also have 440 or some other value.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jan 19, 2020 14:19    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Every driver has there own preference. But many use/did use 540. I also saw a video where he uses around 530. He also said it in an Q & A. That was the skoda time when testing in Tour de corse last year. Seems like he uses 440 now if he says it in the video. So everyone should use what you're comfortable with.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jan 19, 2020 14:54    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Zitat:
Every driver has there own preference. But many use/did use 540. I also saw a video where he uses around 530. He also said it in an Q & A. That was the skoda time when testing in Tour de corse last year. Seems like he uses 440 now if he says it in the video. So everyone should use what you're comfortable with.


As i understand, he use 440° only in RBR not in real (i dont think in real you can use another wheelgear as the homologated one)

that would underline my theory written above

The main prroblem is not the taste itself. You have a realistic wheel deflection but you can´t drive the RBR car like reality. conclusion, it dosnt work equal. further thinking, if it dosnt work equal you get different behavior if you drive the car in RBR with realistic driving technique. Other conclusion, you need to adjust the driving style to the physics and this could be result in a none realistic behavior.
Besides of that, if you adjust your driving style (or setup, or your steering wheel angle.....whatever) you can not expect a realistic behavior at all.
You will allways get different situations and will allways get different results. Sometimes the adjustments will help to get a expected realistic result, but sometimes you get the opposite of your expection (learned by reality)

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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jan 19, 2020 15:03    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Just unlock the steering lock in car setup, car just dont turn in and cant handle oversteer, it is obvious that the front wheels arent turning enough. Forget the numbers in real life you cant compare them as explained above.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jan 19, 2020 15:08    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Other things is that evetually you can drive with this setup bit its because you remember the track and know where to expect something, but if you go on fresh, guaranteed you crash or go wide somewhere even when going carefully because you dont know the trajectori for this 540 steering.

please don´t spam. Use the edit function
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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jan 19, 2020 19:26    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Do you know now what the number in the car setup means?
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jan 19, 2020 23:59    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Lamda hat folgendes geschrieben:
dont compare actual monte test videos with RBR tarmac. it is a different drive near 0°C or 25°C. in reality you neeed diffe1rent tyres. in RBR it is not implement.


After some more tests, with different surrfaces and differrent cars. I dont want givee a stateement for every car or track but i see and feel a general issue for "slippy" surfaces.

in comperation with reeal videos and real situations (focused for gravel and snow, tarmac looking ok for me (eexceept it coould a littele bit sharper car reaction)

1. You have to steer much more to get thee similar result as in reality. if i set my steering wheeel to 540°, which is proven real steering wheel angle (lock to lock) for WRC/R5 cars, i neeed to steer 180° to onee side to get the same result as 90° in reality. With this handicap you are not able to steer or countersteer as in reality, you also cant make good initial kicks on steering to move your car more to oversteer. In general it limit your possibilities to push your car as you want, in result you stay mostly understeered.

2. You need much more braking to get the needed weight transfer for a instable/weak rear axle. If you brake that hard (what you need for right weight transfer) you slow to much down in fast and mid fast corner. So you have two choices but never a realistic result (1. brakee easy-> weight transfer is not enough; 2. Brake hard-> you are to slow .... both endss in a more understeer behavior)

3. your driftangle is to small. the angle where you can ballanced thee drift with acceelation and countersteering is too small. mostly you need to "steeer in" to hold the drift (not counteersteering). result: it feels more understeering than oversteering.

I think it would be a suitable experiment to change something to correct this, maybe all other problems will disaper because it was a result of wrong driving by reason of this less possibillitys.


personally I have similar feelings. I know we already discussed about steering rotation, angle, ratio etc during the NGP6 tests, but as Lamda stated, I also think that for similar steering correction as in real life I need more in RBR. I don't know why..cause if we have right steering ratio, angle and rotation, it should be the same. But it seems it is not. Maybe something related to tyres/surface?

I tested a lot, mainly wrc/r5/R4 cars and especially on snow I'm still not satisfied (yeah, we discussed also "snow" topic). With WRC it is quite ok for me. I created setup suited to my driving style and it is now more driveable in terms of understeer/oversteer behaviour (but maybe just due to power?). But with R5 (no central diff) and R4 (active diff) I really can't do things, as in reality should be. For all 4wd cars I know from real life, the situation on snow is as follows:

1) Understeer in the first part of the corner
2) then (due to weight transfer, handbrake or more turn in) the rear part starts sliding
3) when the rear is in the slide (starts oversteer) then it is quite easy to choose if you want understeer or oversteer just by throttle and steering (simplified - more throttle or turn in to get oversteer, less of both or countersteer to get understeer again)

This applies to all systems- viscous, active, no centre diff, xdrive, quattro and even the haldex. No matter on tyres, front diff, rear diff or central diff. (Yeah, in fact it matter, but base behaviour of 4wd on snow is similar)

But with R5/R4 cars in NGP6 I'm almost not able to do this. The rear is so stable and dont want to go to slide. Althought if I lock all diffs, the car don't want to come to oversteer just by throttle and steering. If I open them, the same.
I know that locked diffs tend to get understeer in case of clear/smooth driving (without sliding) but once the car is in the slide, the situation is different and it depends on driver what he will do.

I'm one of those who advocated behavior on the snow. But the more I'm testing, the more it seems there must be something wrong. I'm not saying it has to be a big thing, but maybe it's the thing that we have to estimate to get real behaviour. Or maybe it's the last 5-10% that we cannot know from formulas, car dynamics or whatever?
I know (Bee) that you are not a fan of estimating or whatever. But do you think, it is possible to do something with that?
Maybe just for a test purposes (no update actual version)?

I really love NGP6, so guys please do not take this as a criticism. I just want to help to make it even better.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jan 20, 2020 08:52    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

look at this video, it really doesnt look sharp as we expect or what we see from real onboards, isnt it? He uses 540°

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhK1dQIq1Qw
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jan 20, 2020 13:09    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

@Dennis Zetak

He says in the video comments section answering your question that he uses 420º of rotation. Why are you saying 540?
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jan 20, 2020 13:47    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

because he edit his answer... firstly he answered "Yes, but I usually use 420 degrees" i have this answer in my annoucements on youtube. But it doesnt matter, by using 420° steering must be much more sharper and it isnt.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Jan 21, 2020 21:18    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Hi, Bee! I didn’t want to bother, because I see that there is a lot of work to catch the bug for 144 hertz monitors, but I can’t help but ask if you will adapt the physics for the Porsche 997 GT3 2010 v2? And how soon? The question is related to the start of the RBR-RU championship, and I wanted to start the season with a new car (she has a very well-designed interior).
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jan 22, 2020 10:21    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

No plans to make physics for the v2.
We already have enough Porsches in NGP6.

As you may have realized, I am busy with creating feelgood physics for the community, so the creation of new cars is postponed for a while.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jan 22, 2020 12:15    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Hi Bee,

I'd like to report a sound problem that I experienced when upgrading to NGP6. First I thought I had caused it myself by changing the SoundTorqueThreshold in the richardburnrally.ini because I was unhappy with some sounds in the new version. But I later realised this value only had effect in 6.0 and not in later versions.
Anyway, so far I have played with Vsync=off because I get some occasional stutters when I activate it. But now I have to activate it (took me a few hours to actually find the problem), because otherwise the sound is buggy in one way or the other.
I think it's a known issue that effects like tires and blowoff aren't working as supposed on high framerates, that's why the soundRefreshRate was introduced. And that's where the new bug is for me, if I set any other value then 0 (i.e. 60), the engine sound is completely distorted. I'm not sure if anyone else had this problem yet, because it is very noticable and a pain for the ears. I can make a video if that helps.

In case this is somehow hardware-related, here are some speccs:

CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-6700HQ CPU @ 2.60GHz
GPU: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 970M
DirectX Driver Version: 25.21.14.2546
Windows 10 (64 bit)
Sound Blaster Recon3D

No idea if anything else could be relevant, I will post it on request.


Regards,
Woifeh

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jan 22, 2020 12:15    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Good Morning,

I have been testing NGP6 since they are available in the CZ plugin and I feel the steering perfect.

I think the problem may be in the FOV. I have noticed that if I use a FOV greater than the real one obtained in a calculator the steering does not respond properly, but if I use the obtained one it works perfectly. Even if I use a lower one, the steering is too fast and direct.

In my opinion the problem is not NGP6.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jan 22, 2020 12:27    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

@wbk
Video would be nice.
Anyone else have this problem ?

@jorge
I totally agree.
FOV plays a big role in this "issue".
We do not know the FOV in the videos used for comparison.
But, it seems that absolutely nobody believes me, whatever I say. wink
Personally, if I increase the FOV the steering, or better say, the car's reaction, becomes way too twitchy.
But this is only the way you perceive it, the car's behavior is still the same.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jan 22, 2020 13:22    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I've just made a short video comparing both the correct and the distorted sound. Used the Aston with Cobra sound, but it's not in any way car- or eng-file related.

Same clips, once with soundRefreshRate=0, then with soundRefreshRate=60, see upper right corner. One is replay and the other actual driving, but that doesn't make any difference. Only thing changed is the soundRefreshRate.

First 15 seconds I was just playing with the throttle, afterwards follows a short driving section.

https://youtu.be/T1jjz_TlLac

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jan 22, 2020 13:27    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I hear the differences in your video, but I can't reproduce it with 754, whatever soundRefreshRate value I set.
In Audio.ini I use NumberChannels=64 and EnableEQOnCars=false. In FixUp.ini I use vSyncActive & fixVSync = 1 (I have tested it with 0 - no difference)
My audio interface runs at 44 100 & 24-bit.

@Bee My only problem with the sound is kind of specific = it is not worth to spending your time with this ATM, I just want to report it.
I use an M-Audio external interface which occasionally decides to stop outputting any sound (OS-wide) because of it's crappy / old drivers ... and it needs to be restarted to work normally again. If this happens during a rally I have to finish it without sound because if I try to restart the interface the game freezes and needs to be restarted as well.
Recent games survive the changes in the audio interface.

But as I said - it is definitely not important as it is mostly my problem... smile

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jan 22, 2020 13:53    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I normally use soundRefreshRate=0. But if set it to 60 i have distorted sound as soon as the stage starts. https://streamable.com/2wabl
 
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