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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Dez 29, 2019 19:13    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Wait am i watching a different video. The one porsche video you linked is on snow/tarmac. Both years it was there. https://www.rallyekarte.de/Ardenne-Bleue-Rally-2005 Try out Wet tarmac tires on snow. You will get a similar result. The other videos of that event it doesn't look like there are mini spikes. Also you linked an video of a WRC car instead of an R5. Which video you are talking about with the 10 sec gap?
 
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Lamda
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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Dez 29, 2019 20:00    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

10s gap is on my rbr replay. i tested both Porsch vs R5

links see post below

Zitat:
RWD cars feel fine on snow


I dont negate this statement, but your reasons are wrong. more weight on rear makes a car not more stable especially for slipy undergrounds.
you can control RWD on slippy underground only by carefull steering and a slow car movement (becausee of the weight in the rear the car allways slides more oversteered). And dont forget, you have the full power on the rear axle, more spinning tyres = leess grip.

take a look to some monte carlo videos how slow must AWD cars (with a better centre of gravity) must drive with the Wet tarmac tyre. The porsche is faster and more agile on this full snowed road (maybe it is not full snowed?, that would a point that i miss maybe)

anyway, as more slippy as less faster RWD are (against a AWD)

i would say the NGP6 gravel behavior a little bit more slippy sideways (or maybe only overall) is count much better for snow

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Dez 30, 2019 15:31    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I personally haven't had a problem with snow and I'm a bit surprised to see people saying this so I took a peek at Lamda's R5 replay. Just a few corners in and it's obvious that most of the blame for the understeer is down to driving. Sometimes it looks like you are trying to plow straight on. Braking straight and then just turning the wheel like you are expecting it to magically turn the car. Maybe you are more used to driving on tarmac?

I'm not saying this to be a dick, I just don't think people should be so quick to place the blame on car/setup/physics. You'll need to play with the weight and be more aggressive to get the tires to bite.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Dez 30, 2019 17:05    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I little agree with Tyler. I'm not going to post real onboards as it is not so favourite here.. but if you watch real snow onboards with R5 cars, you can spot that R5 are quite neutral, or little bit understeer as well. I found interesting onboard with Kalle and to be honest, sliding is more provocated by driver input, when he wants to "throw" the car to the corner. In fast corners there is almost always understeer after apex and he has to "turn more again".
I have some experiences with the studded tyres, and driving style is like Bee said "somewhere between gravel and wet tarmac". Of course you can drive it like with winter tyres, but if you want to go really fast, driving style is different and you have to really "throw" the car into corner and trust to the studs. Then sliding (oversteer) starts by inertia, not by throttle.

my tips: start with brake balance (+rear), braking to the corner to keep front tyres load, try to drive more like with FWD car, set the diffs for neutral behaviour with throttle after apex. You need to "prepare" the car for acceleration already before the corner (like: throw it, push the pedal and steer), be aggresive.

Also if you can't drive it on original stages, try Sturec snow or Peklo. There are not big walls, so you can cut more, slide more or whatever - good for testing for me. I also struggle with the big snow banks and it's not easy to drive properly at finland stages, but once you find the key, it gets better and better.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Dez 30, 2019 20:58    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Please show me your replay with a i20R5 so i can compare.
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Dez 30, 2019 23:30    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Here's me with R5 at first split of Sikakama. Just a short test with default setup. Mistakes, room for improvement, etc, yada yada yada.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1jjUrX8bsN_0r15cg3ko0scVqZ1fPEXXV

There's obviously some understeer but nothing that I'd call broken. Just get some weight on the front, get it to bite, and all good no problem. Setup helps quite a bit but it's not magic (some changes can help avoid getting caught out by the snowbanks too). The driving style / approach has to get figured out before worrying too much about that though.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Dez 31, 2019 00:13    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

and here is mine.. i20 R5 Sikakama with some setup changes.
Please note that I drove i20 for the first time and R5 are not my favourite, so I don't know how to drive it totally properly. Includes some crashes of course.. But I chose my usual driving technique and seems quite good for me. You can also extract the setup, if you want.. I changed some things, but not too much.
I still feel some understeer, but it seems it can be changed by setup or driving style. I created this during 3-4 rides, so it's far from perfect.
peace:-)

replay link: https://wsi.li/3SpBTsvEwMIoHw
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Dez 31, 2019 17:02    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Tyler I cant load your replay.. It goes to the starting line and instantly ends.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Dez 31, 2019 17:38    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

You need to put the fiesta r5 in slot5. Then the replay will work.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Dez 31, 2019 18:00    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

@Buck, unfortunately i can´t load your replay, it is loading and ends after loading instantly (edit: ok....fiesta ..... i should try)

i take a look to your setup, it seems the default setup.

@WRCPuncture: your setup dosnt help for the main problem. You set it more frindly for oversteer but the oversteer occur only in the late of turn out.
But i dont know why, your setup is more frindly to handle the snowbanks better. My driving result shows similar than your replay, so i can say you also fight with understeer and you get only on late turn out the oversteer.
the setup is not faster than the default, because you are not able to "swing" from corner to corner. you get one with oversteer, the next following you have also understeer in turn in.
I dont understand some setting of you setup. You set fastbump rear very stiff, dont belive it would be work in reality for snow. Second, you set camber for rear positiv i would wonder to see that in reality exept i would put some heavy weight on this axle (so it is negative at the end too). With a positiv camber you decrease your grip unnessesary (you will never see it for rally cars)

Zitat:
edit: something strange..... for example you set your wheelhardware to 360° lock to lock.
Than yyou drive on snow. after 30° steering it feels understeer. until aprox 90° steering it is understeer (replay shows it too), it happend not much, the car dosn´t steer (right behavior for understeer). But if you steer more than 90° the car steers more too. Why should more steering avoid understeer?? makes no sense.


that should be the main problem.

it make no seense, that less steering gets into more understeering. With NGP6.1 it is not consistent. with less steering you get understeer, your car is not going more into a corner if you steer more. on a special point it (if you steer further) the car turns more in.

if i set my wheel hardware to 360° (so i can easy steer the full range) i can drive near as i expected. But here i mostly steer over 90° and also sometimes to full angle. in long curves i can steer to get oversteer. And no, it makes no sense to get only oveersteer with heavy braking at turn in. In real videeo,you can see someetimes on long corners, first understeer, switch too fast to oversteer, steering correction switch to light understeer, push on steering and it goes to oversteer. In NGP6.1 if you switched back to understeer you cant get oversteer again (exept you steer the full angle)
If i rethink this to a driver with real steering angle (540° lock to lock) the rallydrivers would turning on there Steeringwheels as hell. But it dosnt look so.....
So that is the point

you must able to change the load from one side to another with steering in a normal way (maybe with additionaly a little bit left food braking for load)

As i look real videos it shows me, you have to more carefull to steer not to much because you get very easy oversteering if you steer/load to much. if you steer to havy and fast, the car oversteers fast and havy to, so you have to slow steer with understeer first to get a smoth oversteer (and controllable) behavior after the apex point.
in some situations, the real driver can change the own load very fast from one side to the other (curve combinations) which are impossible with NGP

again, please check out the video Lappy-Rally sweden onboard.

you can analyze how he steer, how the car is moving and see when the cars gets geeneraly oversteer (skidmarks from other driver)

compare it to your own driving with NGP

he noormaly use a steering range near to 90° for the weight transfer on turn in and maximum 200° for some sharp corner corrections.
with 90° steering (RBR) on turn in you get exactly the result of my (bad)replay. It understeeers because the reear axle stays stable, no (not that much which need for oversteer) weight transfer happend.

you need to steer aprox 180° (and more) at turn in to get the same result

That would show you "one hand steer" in every corner greater than a called 6 (1 hairpin, 7 is flat)

Edit: i made another replay with my hardware Steeringwheel setting to 360° lock to lock
shows more realistic, but here you fight hard against the short possible angle. you are not that precised as need for small steering angles and you have to fight with snowbanks. you feel sometimes also the understeer behavior after the drift ends (but corner wasnt done)
With this setting i also need to steer not only less times with one hand and near 180° (would be with an realistic steering angle near 270°)

shows more realistic but not feel right (and not realy shows right, but better than before)
As you can see, i know what im doing.

I20R5-Snowtest-NGP6.1-002

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Zuletzt bearbeitet von Lamda am Di Dez 31, 2019 19:29, insgesamt 3-mal bearbeitet
 
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Cristian Lamas
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Dez 31, 2019 18:57    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

https://youtu.be/MT35tfOJeTY

Will we see all these beautiful cars in NGP6.1?
it would be something great biggrin
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Dez 31, 2019 23:57    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Lamda: first to my setup, I know that fast bump should be softer for snow, but I set this to test a car for some bumps on the road. As I said - this was just for ilustration. About the positive rear camber I'm a lot surprised...I dont know what happened but I'm pretty sure I set negative camber (maybe strange behaviour of czech plugin - I checked it again now, load the setup, value is negative, check dampers, suspensions and back to alignment and voila - the camber is positive (?!?!..) I dont know why.

About the video with Lappi: IMHO, the wrc is quite different. Personally I have no problem with wrc on snow. Yeah, I had to tune some things, but basically I can say I can drive it as we can see in the video. I mean the basic behaviour..not so fast smile

I didnt want to post videos again..but ok.. no one of us drive these cars, so it's somewhat helpful to compare our input, real drivers input and watching what cars do.
https://youtu.be/O9otiWfmXrQ?list=WL Please, look at the drivers input. I'm quite surprised how "understeer" it looks. Maybe I'm completely wrong, but for me it is different from wrc.

But I watched your last replay and I think I more know what you are talking about. But I am not sure what is "wrong". Your/our input, setup, or physics? Because as I said, with WRC it is OK for me, with lets say Impreza 555 also ok..so I don't know. Did you try for example Blanare or Kuadonvaara? Do you feel the same problem there?
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Dez 31, 2019 23:59    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Cristian Lamas hat folgendes geschrieben:
https://youtu.be/MT35tfOJeTY

Will we see all these beautiful cars in NGP6.1?
it would be something great biggrin


I hope:-) the C2 is already here and its pleasure to drive this thing. Personally I'm looking forward for the screaming S2000 cars:-)
 
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Lamda
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jan 01, 2020 01:18    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Zitat:
About the video with Lappi: IMHO, the wrc is quite different. Personally I have no problem with wrc on snow. Yeah, I had to tune some things, but basically I can say I can drive it as we can see in the video. I mean the basic behaviour..not so fast


dont compare a WRC of the newest geneeration with an R5 car. thats totaly different. WRC have more possibilitys to change the car behavior complete different. only the centre differential, engine power and the wings makes a huge different. R5 are much more limited.

maybe the rbr wrc setups would to heavy for reality.....maybe there must be set much more defense to have control on snowed road (nobody knows). i belive, you can change the car behavior easy to realistic with some unrealistic setings (if the physic dosnt match to reality)

but it can also be a little issue on the suspension geometry of R5 or only a parameter for the tyre wasnt on point. But it looks like the Porsche (and the other RWD too) is also to easy to drive.

I saw your video, holy shit was that fast. im also wondering about this fast and direct car reaction. but he also was allways able to steer to oversteer (look at 4:28, he slides with only a little steering in to corner, the car switch to oversteer, he conteersteer to much (car is understeer) and is able to steer again to oversteer. thats what i mean with fighting with over- AND understeer. In RBR i only fight with understeer, oversteer is easy catchable (exept the shitty snowwallphysic on sikakama on some corners wothout a snowwall)

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jan 01, 2020 11:52    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I agree with Lambda, and the video of Kalle that wrcpuncture sent is a good example of the behavior that doesn’t exist in ngp6. Car always tends to understeer middle corner on longer corners and one should be able to balance it again easily but something is off in my view. Wrcpuncture you can see that behavior in your replay in the first very long medium right in sikakama where you couldn’t maintain the angle of the car through the corner, and I feel it’s not a lack of skill because you know what you are doing, it’s something in the physics, I don’t know where, maybe in the tyre model somehow but I don’t know what I’m talking about.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jan 01, 2020 12:55    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

How many times do I have to explain basic vehicle dynamics at the limit, again and again ?

You don't steer a car with the steering, you steer it by balancing the load on the tires.
An AWD car will for sure understeer if you apply throttle, which unloads the front, and loads the rear.
You have to use the inertia of the car to first of all break (!) the traction of the tires (don't know if this is a good wording) at corner entry.
Then you use this momentum to actually make the car turn.
By applying throttle you keep the tires spinning, so the car should keep turning, but by LFB you have to put some load on the front if it drifts not enough.
So, it is a matter of timing and skill to get the initial momentum right at corner entry.
Then you balance the car: more throttle --> less drift, car straightens. Less throttle, more load on front --> car turns nose in.
This is basic AWD driving and drifting technique.

Funny that all you guys not knowing a piece of shit about vehicle dynamics want to tell me that something in the physics is basically wrong. wink
Ooops, am I a little bit pissed ??

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jan 01, 2020 16:29    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Zitat:
Funny that all you guys not knowing a piece of shit about vehicle dynamics want to tell me that something in the physics is basically wrong.

nobody suggest that (im not and i feelt noone does)

Zitat:
Ooops, am I a little bit pissed ??


yes you are (an noone knows why) and you ignore some facts again. you said yourself you allways need frontload. but i dosnt see at video, that lappy heavily brake to switch from understeer to oversteer. I never say the physic is wrong but the result is not same as reality. It is to stable for rear axle OR to less grip on the front axle. steering and lift the gas should be enough initial inertial to go oversteered (exspecially wheen you all things setup to more oversteer). The spinning tyres should rip the grip as much you can hold a drift with an oversteered car. on snow drifting R5 car should have enoug power to allways spin the tyres during drift.
On snow you should be able to hold long drifts for long corners with spinning tyres and the right driftangle. but this are impossible with the I20R5 (without unrealistic setups far from reality). your speeed allways decress more and more until it switched from drift (oversteer) to understeer and you can nothing do against exept steer at full range (but i never saw this in real videos)

another point, for initial you have to steer to get the load on one side. it must be possible with light brake load the front as much you need for that initial. In RBR you have to havy brake for this (with brakebalance near 50:50). otherwise your rear stays stable and you understeer.
On real videos, you see for R5 often light understeer at turn in and a switch to oversteer near the apex and the car is allways accelated. in rbr it never happens.
Show us how it works....

whats your explaination, that you have understeer for lower steeering angle, if you steer much more near to the maximum (without doing any frontload) it can switch to oversteer. As your given explainations this should be impossible.

It makes no sense to answer to all with "it is at is is" without any explaination why something is not working same as in reality and what we can do to drive as reality with the "perfect" NGP physic.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jan 01, 2020 17:41    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Lamda hat folgendes geschrieben:
whats your explaination, that you have understeer for lower steeering angle, if you steer much more near to the maximum (without doing any frontload) it can switch to oversteer. As your given explainations this should be impossible.

Just because there is something you do not understand it does not mean it is wrong.

What happens in this case is that you "pull" the front into the corner by using the thrust of the driven front wheels.
So you don't use the true lateral force of the tyre (slip angle is far beyond the optimum for maximum grip due to the large steering angle) for turning the car (or the front, however), but the longitudinal force of the driven front wheels.


This looks and feels like oversteer of course, but basically you pull the rear around the corner, and as soon as the yaw angle of the car is big enough, the rear finally steps out.

Indeed you usually keep steering into the corner with an AWD, so it is understeery, so to say.

Lamda hat folgendes geschrieben:

It makes no sense to answer to all with "it is at is is" without any explaination why something is not working same as in reality and what we can do to drive as reality with the "perfect" NGP physic.

Well, some drivers can cope with the NGP physics.
Some do not, or do not want to.

I can only fix things which are broken.
Snow seems ok, not broken.
It is not like gravel, and it is not like tarmac.
So you can't drive it as on gravel or tarmac.
And, why for gods sake did it take decades for non-scandinavians to win snow rallyes if it is so easy to drive for everyone ?
I mean, the real thing, not RBR.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jan 01, 2020 17:50    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Nobody has to be pissed.
Lambda is correct.

10 sec video of Tyler Buck in one long corner, examplifying what lambda describes:

on board: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EewFpRCtEZo

exterior cam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLy4Nj18lig

Workerbee, if everything is so perfect, could you do this one corner (first very long medium right) or the whole sikakama stage and show us how a proper AWD r5 should be driven like in real life? Cause I dont think that just by LFB you can maintain the drift, the car just slowly dies.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jan 01, 2020 18:11    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I can tell you that corner was not driven perfectly at all. On top of that default setup not being the most suited for my driving.

I still don't see a problem anyway. In the car driving that corner I never felt an unnatural amount of understeer. Exactly what I learned to expect from snow even in NGP5. It was easily corrected and under control.

I'm doing exactly what Bee describes... Letting off the throttle a bit and giving it some brake to get weight on the nose. You can see the weight transfer in that video, the nose dipping slightly a few times.

I'm open to the possibility that I'm just driving around some problems, but no one has actually come up with a convincing argument that doesn't involve comparing steering rotation to IRL onboards.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jan 01, 2020 19:32    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

you take many expections what is driven and how i (we) try to do it (but it´s not working as should.



Zitat:
What happens in this case is that you "pull" the front into the corner by using the thrust of the driven front wheels.

how can i pull if i dont accelate and brake a little bit?

Zitat:
So you don't use the true lateral force of the tyre (slip angle is far beyond the optimum for maximum grip due to the large steering angle) for turning the car (or the front, however), but the longitudinal force of the driven front wheels.

i try some kind of ways to turn in. less steering (without heavy brake) on the edge of understeer result never in oversteer in the later corner! it stay understeeer and decress only your speed (you can more steer on the edge of understeer, but the car never moves the load to oversteer) -NGP6

it is nonsens, that you always get understeer if you accelate. you can ballanced oversteered and acceelated on circel. at the balance you dont loose speed. its the combination (counter) steering and accelation and the car positioning against inertia.

@buck Tyler , as everyone see in the last short clip, you also dont get it. you have sometimes light oversteer but it snaps instant to understeer back. you are far away from a snow drift like in the real videos.

Zitat:
Well, some drivers can cope with the NGP physics.
Some do not, or do not want to.

And thats the problem, you take all the answer in your own thinking way for good and right and ignore the objective facts from the others. For me is not important if i like it or not, i dont care, if i can handle easy or not. i want see, that it can working in same way as reality, thats simulation for me. I think i can handle the understeere behavior also well enough to drive faster as many other, so i have not a problem with the behavior itself. My point is, it looks not like realistic and dosnt feel as imagine by real car movement.
Nobody shows me the right behavior close enough to reality that i can take it as my own fail. i try hard to reproduce the real situations but i cant. I dont get a solution in any way ( im open for every hints for my side, but it will not right only by theoretical right driving technique, but never practical accomplish)

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jan 01, 2020 22:05    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

yes this is definetly, at least from my part, NOT a question of if we can drive this ngp6 or not, or if we like it or not. The question is if we see realistic behaviour as we see in real life. Simulation is about replicating reality, not about tastes.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Do Jan 02, 2020 01:15    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I think I'm done with this topic. Firstly, I believe what Bee said. Not blindly, but as many cars and surfaces are great, why can be bad just the combination with R5 on snow? I tuned a setup for Fabia R5, and it is quite OK for me. With WRC or another groups I have no problem at all.
I felt understeer only with R5 (and I believe we are still talking just about R5 x snow). BUT - if there is something wrong with surface or car, it has to be wrong almost in every situation (or?).

So I took Fabia r5 with my setup to Sikakama BUT with gravel tyres (to simulate something like classic winter tyre or whatever without studs). Yeah, it makes no sense...but imho R5 is totally OK in this combination, behaves as I expect for this type of car. It is slow, but really well driveable. Why I done this? I know how grippy is studded tyre in real life. So basically... if I realize behaviour of R5 without studs, and I "add" the studs, I will get the behaviour as it is now... I don't expect anything else..

As Bee stated, the driving style is different. I don't expect that everyone of us can drive every car, every surface and be fast at the same time.

BTW: is there someone, who knows how drivers set the diffs for snow? Because in my "neighborhood" if someone has this possibility, they set something like "all to the front" for snow, so for the rear just small preload and not so much power. Because the rear diff can causes understeer quite well on the snow, as it "pushes" the car straight in the first part and in the middle of the corner.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Do Jan 02, 2020 04:39    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Lamda hat folgendes geschrieben:
you also dont get it.


Yep. Honestly I only understand 50% of what you write, the other half is lost in translation.

wrcPuncture hat folgendes geschrieben:
why can be bad just the combination with R5 on snow?


I'm thinking people are feeling exactly what I'm feeling on gravel. It's just much more obvious/exaggerated on snow.

I've been testing R5 on gravel a lot the past couple months and comparing to NGP5 because the car suited me perfectly there. You notice immediately that with R5 in NGP5 you feel much more direct, almost constant weight on the front. NGP5 you could just lift throttle and point the wheel (even just slightly), and the car would follow. Front biting nicely when on the throttle. Easy "drifting" of the long slow corners in Pirka Menoko for example. Pirka is a bit more of a struggle in NGP6. Plowing more with the front and struggling to break into a power slide with the gas. In general you just have to work much harder.

So the R5 is balanced (I guess?) much differently than it used to be, or something like that. It seems to become much more obvious on snow.

I've definitely had to change my driving. R5 is not as enjoyable as it used to be because of this. I'm not the person to ask whether or not it's "broken" or just different though.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Do Jan 02, 2020 14:28    Titel: NGP (Next Generation Physics) Plugin Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

2020-01-02
* updated PhysicsNG (NGP6) plugin to version 6.2.748.416
** new feature: UDP telemetry
** added telemetry values: roll, pitch, yaw
** snow tyre optimized

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