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WorkerBee
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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jun 23, 2019 14:06    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Ok, so what are we gonna do now ?
Do a war on videos ? wink

The engine physics are finally correct with regard to capacity, compression and the like.

I have just adjusted some sound related thresholds to fit the actual engine power.

Again, all previous versions of NGP/RBR had, say 600 Nm as "sound maximum".

So if an engine only has 300 Nm, it will always be only working in the lower 50% of the range.
Compare the 0 to 50% to the 0 to 100% at 600 Nm (vanilla car), it is obvious that the sounds were wrong in the previous versions.

NGP 6 extends the audible range to the intended range, as it was done by the original game developers, to 0 ... "max. engine torque".

Or in other words, in the past it was just "vroom vroom" all the time.

As an engineer and a former body worker working in a workshop for several years I would say a real engine/car does not make that much noise when not under heavy load.

And why do noise emission laws enforce special procedures (full load etc) if a car/engine always makes the same loud noise ?
Then it would be enough to put the engine into idle, test the noise, and get away with it.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jun 23, 2019 14:30    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Personally I would be happy if you can just make the non-load sound louder, I believe that most of people won't care if it is somehow imprecise as this is more an "immersion effect" than an aspect that needs to be as realistic as possible (compared to the actual physics).

Little offtopic - for the future, I would love to see an implementation of FMOD or some similar sound engine. This would deliver way higher quality audio and also offer some very convenient SW for creating the necessary mixes (just for the engine sound as I find the internal effects sufficient).
https://youtu.be/yG126luhzSI?t=31
I am sure this would move RBR into another level in the term of audio.

I spent countless hours trying to create better engine sounds using the original tools (which is utterly complicated BTW) and trust me - there is just no way without switching to new sound engine.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jun 23, 2019 14:56    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

there some kind of differences

if you dont be on gas you have less enginine sound. But you get allways the Gear sound in order to the rpm value. the big difference here is, if you have more spur toothing gears. spur toothing is much louder than involute gear toothing.

i know, some racing cars use spur toothing and some rallycars in past too, but dont know whats actual the best "shit" on road

maybe here must adjust the sounds besides the enginesound?

maybe the blow off function makes more noise on unload engine ?

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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jun 23, 2019 22:16    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

IMHO it is really complicated to compare sound with reality. When we watch wrc onboard videos, the sound is quite distorted because of camera microphone etc. So we almost never hear the real sound of the car.
Ok, I also prefer louder sound on coasting or braking. But yeah, with some engines there is almost no exhaust sound in reality (except diffs, gearbox etc, turbo etc.)

I don´t want to do some war on videos as WorkerBee stated and I cannot tell what is more right, but please, just hear these three videos:
https://youtu.be/KDtqXgVvL78?t=151 (C4 - there it sounds really raw and natural, I think it is really close to reality)
https://youtu.be/VRjaK4Lr9A0?t=338 (C4 - yeah, the difference between ON/OFF throttle sounds big)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc9jA5hg6vc (DS3 - there is some distortion due to camera, I think. But still quite good example.)

I agree with Jendabek about sounds future. It would be nice to see some new "sound system". In Assetto Corsa (fmod) are very good sounds that raise it to the new level. It is just suggestion, I know that we cannot have everything, but for me sounds are also important and it makes the right feeling. But better to have best physics with "bad" sound system than opposite smile

PS: again... I don´t want to make some wars with videos smile peace
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Jun 29, 2019 20:19    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

New car available:

* Trabant P 800 RS GrpA

Feel free to test this rocket ... wink

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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jun 30, 2019 18:00    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

WorkerBee hat folgendes geschrieben:
New car available:

* Trabant P 800 RS GrpA

Feel free to test this rocket ... wink

Is this rocket now faster ? Only uphill it will no running !
Great driving with this rocket - makes fun - thanks !
Never drive such a car in reality, but for me it feels right !

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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jun 30, 2019 22:09    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

After few days of testing I just totally fell in love with DS3. The car is so drivable and playable. Just pure pleasure to drive it. Fiesta 19 is really fast and I can feel huge impact of aerodynamic. It is easy to drive on the edge but not easy to drive like this for a whole stage.

I also drove Impreza 555 and Lancer N. I like both of them. Especially with H-shifter and clutch it is really pure and enjoyable. I prefer different engine map for Evo, but OK, I know that there are many engine maps for gr.N Evo, so I'll be content with this. Also centre diff on Evo feels "strange" sometimes but again, the evos ACD can be mapped differently for every car and there is still possibility to adjust centre diff map in setup, so not a big deal for me.

I have a question about tyres and surfaces. ( I'm just curious)
I suppose, that you can adjust tyres and surface separately. What about mixing of these two? Let's say, slick tyre on snow surface. Can you adjust this mix without impact on for example slick/gravel?
I thought there is a much grip for gravel tyre on tarmac, but than I saw this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9sLTgW1leQ and it seems OK for me. Also videos from real Finland super special stage prove, that it can be OK. So I just wanted to ask about your possibilities smile

BTW: I haven't tried Trabant yet, but I don't know if I can as I have no problem with Fiat smile)))
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jul 01, 2019 07:35    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

wrcPuncture hat folgendes geschrieben:
I also drove Impreza 555 and Lancer N. I like both of them. Especially with H-shifter and clutch it is really pure and enjoyable. I prefer different engine map for Evo, but OK, I know that there are many engine maps for gr.N Evo, so I'll be content with this.

Well yes, regarding the known performance figures of these restrictor engines there is not that much room left for different mappings.
Gr.N have much more torque than the 1.6l WRCs and roundabout almost the same power output, but still those Gr.N cars are far far away performance wise.

wrcPuncture hat folgendes geschrieben:
Also centre diff on Evo feels "strange" sometimes but again, the evos ACD can be mapped differently for every car and there is still possibility to adjust centre diff map in setup, so not a big deal for me.

Agree, but remember that RBR models "some" active differential, for sure not exactly the one planted into a Gr.N Evo.
But given the possible mappings (throttle/brake/speed) it should be possible for everyone to find a suitable setup.

wrcPuncture hat folgendes geschrieben:

I have a question about tyres and surfaces. ( I'm just curious)
I suppose, that you can adjust tyres and surface separately. What about mixing of these two? Let's say, slick tyre on snow surface. Can you adjust this mix without impact on for example slick/gravel?

Yes, this is adjustable.
Tyres have properties, and so do surfaces.
But you do not do yourself and the simulation a favour if you use the "wrong" tyres, e.g. tarmac on gravel.

Given the over 100 different surfaces and 7 different tyre choices I still to not understand why the track modellers just don't use all these surface mappings, that is dry/damp/wet/new/normal/worn.
Should be enough variety.

Instead, we use "challenging" (=nonsense) tyre/surface combinations.

wrcPuncture hat folgendes geschrieben:

I thought there is a much grip for gravel tyre on tarmac, but than I saw this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9sLTgW1leQ and it seems OK for me. Also videos from real Finland super special stage prove, that it can be OK. So I just wanted to ask about your possibilities smile

Nice video.
Noticed how he just flicks the handbrake (and rarely uses it), for a fraction of a second ?!
This is what most drivers still don't understand, pulling the handbrake is not used for locking up the wheels completely, instead you just "steal" available lateral force to make the rear beginning to slide (friction circle).

Using the handbrake does not mean pulling the lever like mad and wait for the reaction. Then it's too late.

Also notice that he flicks the steering wheel at corner entry after putting load on the front tyres, to use the pendulum effect to make the car turn.
Like in NGP/RBR such AWD cars are very easy to drive for the show ...

Interesting steering angle, most of the time using 90 to 180° max, lock seems to be at close to 3/4 (but honestly I can't see it clearly, as he does not need to go into full lock, even when doing donuts).

wrcPuncture hat folgendes geschrieben:

BTW: I haven't tried Trabant yet, but I don't know if I can as I have no problem with Fiat smile)))

Hehe, but you would have to drive the Trabant in reverse all the time, as it is FWD !! wink

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jul 01, 2019 19:31    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

WorkerBee hat folgendes geschrieben:
Given the over 100 different surfaces and 7 different tyre choices I still to not understand why the track modellers just don't use all these surface mappings, that is dry/damp/wet/new/normal/worn.
Should be enough variety.

This is the real point for me - especially with NGP 6 I believe we are already in the state when the track quality / detail will make much more difference than all the subtle tweaks in the actual physics.
Unfortunately the tools for creating tracks are so unfriendly, buggy and limited, that we should be happy for any new tracks released, regardless of it's quality.
It would be dream if this could change in the future so RBR can unveil all it's potential in this regard (which is huge).

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jul 01, 2019 20:36    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

WorkerBee: yeah, his driving is great and I think if we put the same input and setup it would be almost the same in RBR.

About the tyres.. we have 7 different tyre choices. Is that by RBR limitations? Didn't you think about making "different" tyres? I mean the hardness as it is in WRC: super soft, soft, medium, hard (I believe). But I don't know if it makes sense as we can't set temperature for stages. And of course there are different regulations in local championships etc..
Personally I would like to drive something like "Michelin NA studded for Monte Carlo" tyres. But sadly I think that they would not be used many times online, so I understand it's not worth it.

and with Trabant it was a joke smile

As you and jendabek stated, it's a pity that more types of surfaces are not used. With NGP6 it is really noticable and challenging when grip is different. And yeah, as jendabek noticed, modding RBR and specially tracks is unfortunatelly quite difficult. Comparing with for example Assetto Corsa where there are tens of cars, tracks and sounds every months.. but that's not a problem of NGP smile
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Jul 02, 2019 08:25    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

wrcPuncture hat folgendes geschrieben:
About the tyres.. we have 7 different tyre choices. Is that by RBR limitations?

Yes and no.
It is more a limitation of online plugins in combination with vanilla RBR.

wrcPuncture hat folgendes geschrieben:
Didn't you think about making "different" tyres?

In fact each car has its own set of tyres, if you put it this way.
As in real life you have to choose the correct load index, otherwise the tyres will not be in their operating window.
That's what NGP does automatically.
Vanilla RBR and all other non-NGP physics use the same tyres for all cars, which is absolutely wrong.
We have cars from 730 kg to 10 tons, wouldn't work with just one tyre spec.

wrcPuncture hat folgendes geschrieben:
I mean the hardness as it is in WRC: super soft, soft, medium, hard (I believe).

dry/intermediate/wet tyres are hard/medium/soft, so basically we already have that.

wrcPuncture hat folgendes geschrieben:
But I don't know if it makes sense as we can't set temperature for stages.

Correct, but who should actually test and confirm all these variants ?

Just take a look at our discussion about steering angles, a thing which is based on true data, and still people "don't agree".
Three months wasted for a piece of unimportant shit.

When it comes to tyres, you can't please everyone, and you will never be finished if you listen to everyone.


wrcPuncture hat folgendes geschrieben:
And of course there are different regulations in local championships etc..
Personally I would like to drive something like "Michelin NA studded for Monte Carlo" tyres. But sadly I think that they would not be used many times online, so I understand it's not worth it.

Exactly. Not worth the effort.

For example tyre pressure actually affects the performance significantly, but some drivers still "don't feel it".

wrcPuncture hat folgendes geschrieben:
and with Trabant it was a joke smile

Yes, I got the irony. wink

wrcPuncture hat folgendes geschrieben:

As you and jendabek stated, it's a pity that more types of surfaces are not used. With NGP6 it is really noticable and challenging when grip is different. And yeah, as jendabek noticed, modding RBR and specially tracks is unfortunatelly quite difficult. Comparing with for example Assetto Corsa where there are tens of cars, tracks and sounds every months.. but that's not a problem of NGP smile

You cannot compare RBR/NGP with AC.
AC is still actively developed by a large developer base.

RBR suffers from kind of nationalist war.
Yes, each online plugin claims to be the best, have the best physics (even when based on the shitty vanilla RBR, really ???), and all that shit.
Actually some people just hate NGP because it originates from a German engineer.
Quite a sad world we live in. sad

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jul 03, 2019 10:40    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

New car available:

* Fiat 126 Grp2

RWD, short wheelbase, low weight and low power.

Feel free to test. smile

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Jul 06, 2019 16:56    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

based on this proven video for realistic WRC behavor
Zitat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9sLTgW1leQ


try it at NGP6 with DS3WRC, it should close enough to compare it with fiestaWRC

you see, he push only a little bit the brake before corner and is able to generate only with steering and accelerating/throttle a long drift.

as i tried i need to push brake hard to get any oversteer, mostly i get understeered. If i got oversteer, it is hard to control the sliding. if i accelate (only a little bit) if i feel the sliding slowes down) the car begun to spin. i was not able to counter the spin with countersteer.

In that video he needs to accelate a lot (with rotating tyres) to hold the sliding, the engine needs a lot of torque to hold the slide (sound slows down)

another test, some handbrake turns. normaly on a 180° handbrake turn the driver push the handbrake in the first 1/3 of the corner, sliding aprox until the angular point and than push the slide with accelation (spinning tyres).
thats not realy working. 1/3 of corner with handbrake is to much, i was allways spinning without control. If you get the perfect handbrake push, its oversteer and slide, but you can only accelate a little bit. if thee tyres spins a little bit more, you allways spin (you are not able tho countersteer it)


try same with fiestawrc17:

here you are not able to get oversteer by only push the brake. i got allways understeer.
second test with handbrake working realy better than DS3WRC. but also push handbrake the first 1/3 of the corner is to much too.

FiestaWRC17 is easy controllable on a road-track too, The DS3WRC often spin in the wood by small car moving (in succession of surface waves, holes or little bumps).
I think, the fiesta corner "turn in" understeers a little bit to much and the corner "turn out" oversteers to less on full accelation
but maybe the Fiesta behavor could be changed by few setup changes

I tried many things on the ds3WRC setup, but if i reduce the spinning behavor, i get much mor understeer on corner turn in. often than i get no sliding. maybe anyone can tell me the "trick" ?



i made in past a test track. maybe it helps for driving tests. I uploaded in the downloadsection.
Don´t share a modified version and don´t use anything from it for other track projects.
to unpack you need a RAR compatible unpack tool (winrar; 7zip). please read the readme file for installation instruction

Testtrack-06-07-2019

EDIT: sorry, the pass is "Lamda"

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Zuletzt bearbeitet von Lamda am Sa Jul 06, 2019 22:34, insgesamt einmal bearbeitet
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Jul 06, 2019 20:01    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Lamba:
as I stated before with videos.. personally I have no problem with hairpins, grip, weight transfer and even the steering angle..I already tried DS3 with gravel setup and tyres on tarmac and it feels pretty close to this video.

What type of controller do you use for handbrake? button? potentiometer? load cell? I know that this can make a huge difference even if you set up filter for button. I'm using load cell handbrake and I can really push as I need. With button handbrake I have never been so accurate in term of pressure. Just imagine to push 40% handbrake for 2 seconds..impossible with button.

OK, on default I can say that my feelings are quite similar as yours. But if I adjust setup a little, there is no problem. If I compare my replays with reality, it seems pretty close. So for me NGP6 is really great and driveable. (and to be honest, every driver who want go really fast - as we in RBR, adjusts setup)

and my trick? I wrote some tips for setup before. But try start with Antiroll bars and diffs. I don't know now, what values I exactly use, but let's say
tarmac:
front ARB 15kN
rear ARB 27kN, this made a huge difference in sliding for me.
Front diff 140nm/power 40%/coast 10%;
rear diff 170nm/power 65%/coast 20%.
Centre diff 750nm and map as you prefer. I prefer 100% lock for 100% throttle and brake, but much more less locking in coasting/braking.
I like "cornering with brakes" so I also add more rear brake pressure. This, together with "open" diffs on coasting/braking, allows me easy "turn in". And other things helps me to slide a little in the end of corner.
If I'm not satisfied after these steps, I adjust dampers and suspensions. I think default set works very well, so just soften rear (if car is oversteer) or soften front (if car is understeer).

That's my approach. But of course it doesn't mean that it's right, but it works for me..smile
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Jul 06, 2019 20:42    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Lamda hat folgendes geschrieben:

i made in past a test track. maybe it helps for driving tests. I uploaded in the downloadsection.
Don´t share a modified version and don´t use anything from it for other track projects.
to unpack you need a RAR compatible unpack tool (winrar; 7zip). please read the readme file for installation instruction

Testtrack-06-07-2019


btw..the link doesn't work for me sad where I can find the track please?
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Jul 06, 2019 20:46    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I updated the link wrcPuncture. You are welcome.
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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Jul 06, 2019 22:49    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

i forgot to publish the password, sory. i edit my post


center diff? The DS3 havn´t center diff.....

Maybe you didnt understand right, the FiestaWRC17 is easy driveable and have not "wrong" behavor as couldn´t change by setup. so its fine for me.

But the DS3WRC, i like the turn in behavor, but i didnt find a setting which didn´t reverse the turn in good thing as i use setings to fix the spinning behavor

would be nice if you upload a DS3 replay, i can extract the setup from it

for uploads i use Uschovna.cz for years, easy and save free uploader

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wrcPuncture
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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jul 07, 2019 10:40    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

I made another videos:
DS3 with gravel setup on Rally school mix stage:
https://youtu.be/gdkEscTTDoY
There you can noticed that it was too much in 2:07 and I almost spinned, but grass saved me.

Impreza 555 on snow Joux Plane
https://youtu.be/_kh2RplHkpA
This was my first run ever on snow with this car..looks quite fast and grippy, but actual speed was not so high, maybe the replay cam FOV done this.

Yeah, I know there is not centre diff in DS3, I didn't understand right, but except centre diff you can try these tips also for DS3.
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jul 14, 2019 11:39    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Updated car physics (fixed typos and redundant data):

* Mitsubishi Lancer Evo IX N4


New car available:

* Subaru Impreza N15 R4

RBRCIT/carList.ini updated.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Di Jul 16, 2019 08:01    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

New car available:

* Renault Twingo R1

RBRCIT/carList.ini updated.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Do Jul 18, 2019 10:47    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

New car available:

* Renault Twingo R2 Evo

RBRCIT/carList.ini updated.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Jul 19, 2019 11:05    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Bugfix:
* Renault Twingo R2 Evo

New car available:
* Opel ADAM R2

RBRCIT/carList.ini updated.

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Jul 20, 2019 08:20    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

This Bee is ... seriously working !
👍

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 BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Jul 20, 2019 23:27    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

so everyone have a holiday? Or just continue on NGP5???
I already had holiday, so today I tested Adam R2.
What a lovely physic! I repeat again, the engines! The characteric and "map". Every car (or group if you want) has a unique engine and it really feels great and noticable in NGP6. I used to like R2 cars in NGP5 but now..wooow! What a feeling. Good job WorkerBee. On tarmac it feels OK, but on gravel..I have no words. Just pure FWD on gravel and big smile on face:-) really enjoyable.
I'm looking forward to every car that Bee release.

Why more people don't share the feelings? To be honest - from day that NGP6 was released for testing I had no need to go back to NGP5. It was really good, but NGP6 is better and better.

Hey people! Throw away the times, hotlapping and tournaments and try to install NGP6 for a two weeks. I promise you, If you like simulators and pure experience of driving, there will be no way to go back smile
 
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 BeitragVerfasst am: So Jul 21, 2019 00:40    Titel: NGP6 - Offline Test Antworten mit Zitat Back to top

Still testing all the cars biggrin

I didn't test the Opel Adam R2 yet but the EVO IX N4 just feels amazing. My favorite out of the NGP6 cars.

The NGP6 standart gravel setup of the Mitsu/Subaru N4/R4 is really great.
Before in NGP5 it felt like the rear had to much grip and didn't want to come out and even with a custom setup it felt really understeery. I never used them. NGP6 Evo IX N4 the steering feels more precise. Rear comes more out now. Only thing i will change is the damper settings.
Fiat 126p and Porsche the Oversteer is more predictable/controllable now. Porsche Standart Setup is good. Also the gears feel better (Idk how to say it better). NGP5 Fiat 126 it felt like the first gear was to long. There is more torque now. (Hope its the correct word).
A lot of Sideway action with the Porsche biggrin. Pleasure to drive. Throttle control i feel like is a lot of better with NGP6. Subaru Group A = Great car! I used 720 dos for all the cars beside the fiat 126 where i used 900 dos.

Going to Test the R1/2 and the trabant later.

Thx for your work biggrin
 
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